To see with one's father in this verse can mean both, to see with one's eyes and with one's mind. Because Yahusha and the Pharisees literally saw things that their fathers did, and saw, with their minds, their fathers' character by the things which they saw with their eyes. Another example is us seeing Alahim's qualities in the things He has created. We see (horao) His qualities with the mind by literally seeing (horao) the things He has done. Horao conveys a depth of seeing beyond just physical sight, which can be included in it's meaning.
To show, again, that you are deceptive and do not give the full meaning of words-- Horao can be used to see with the eyes or to see with the mind, or both. Here are a few other examples:
"No one has seen (horao) Alahim at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him." --John 1:18 (If no one has seen or known the Father, then who was Alahim Yahuah whom Moses saw and knew??? It was The Word, the Son, Messiah Yahusha who existed in the form of Alahim before he humbled himself and came in the form of men.) To see Messiah was to see Alahim, because he was the Word, who was Alahim Yahuah, whose form Moses saw. To know him was to know Alahim, because he is the image and glory of Alahim.
"For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see (horao) all things subjected to him." --Hebrews 2:8
"By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw (horao) he was a beautiful child ; and they were not afraid of the king's edict." --Hebrews 11:23
"Take notice that our brother Timothy has been released, with whom, if he comes soon, I will see (horao) you." --Hebrews 13:23
"And that He appeared (horao) to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared (horao) to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep ; then He appeared (horao) to James, then to all the apostles ; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared (horao) to me also." 1 Corinthians 15:5-8
So, very clearly, 'horao' is used of seeing with the eyes, as well as with the mind.
"Yahusha said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen (horao) Me has seen (horao) the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
It is obvious that to see Yahusha is not to see the Father literally, because Yahusha is NOT the Father. He is the image of the Father. (So, this Scripture alone disproves 'Oneness' theology that Yahusha is the Father.)
My Response in blue:
Thom1000 I agree that the word 'horao' means to behold/see but the context determines it's usage and I very clearly refuted you using John 8:38
Joh 8:38 ¶ I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen (horao) with your father.
The word 'father' is singular which I am bolding and is used for devil and it's not father's as you say. You changed the whole meaning of that verse when you said ..."Because Yahusha and the Pharisees literally saw things that their fathers did, and saw, with their minds, their fathers' character by the things which they saw with their eyes" and you didn't even realize you were agreeing with me when I said in my post that the seeing refers to seeing the NATURE and not the PERSON. So in this way you must be consistent with interpreting the first part of the passage when Messiah says that he speaks what he has seen with his Father-You cannot interpret it as saying that Messiah saw the PERSON/IMAGE of FATHER. Inconsistency is now becoming the hallmark of your errors.
I can give you many examples to show you the erroneous conclusions
3Jo 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of Alahim: but he that doeth evil hath not seen (horao) Alahim.
So tell me Thom1000 if we go by your interpretation then all those who have and are doing good have seen Alahim. Is that the way you take these passages to teach Word was a person besides person called Alahim and that the Father has a shape/image. You make Col 1:15 meaningless because it says that Messiah is the image of the invisible Alahim but to you Father is invisible only to man but is visible to Messiah, is visible to angelic beings and all those in heaven.
1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen (horao) him, neither known him.
I totally agree with you that the word 'horao' means to see either literally or either with the mind but the problem is that you are taking John 6:46, John 8:38 and other places where it means to see with the mind to mean LITERALLY which shows you are bent towards showing that your theology is right instead of allowing Alahim's word to interpret it's context and the use of words to bring out the true meaning.
You also quote John 1:18 to teach a literal seeing without understanding that the remainder of the verse says that the Son of Alahim was in the bosom of Alahim not besides him. You agreed in your post on the meaning of 'exerchomai' that the coming out was from within but are still holding on the position that the Son came from besides Alahim.
Joh 1:18 NOT EVEN ONE (oudeis) hath seen (horao) Alahim at any time; the only begotten Son, which WAS in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
You have also quoted scriptures which do mean a literal seeing which I don't dispute and you use these scriptures in the correct context because these scriptures don't crumble your theology but you use it to show I am wrong in using the word 'horao' in it's context. The readers can read for themselves that the context and the meaning of the word used in that context determines the outcome.
The word 'blepo' can also be used in both ways, but it used more so with actually seeing with the eyes bodily.
"But I say to you that everyone who looks (blepo) at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." --Matthew 5:28
"Then the Pharisees also were asking him again how he received his sight. And he said to them, "He applied clay to my eyes, and I washed, and I see (blepo)." --John 9:15
"Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see (blepo) the face of My Father who is in heaven."
You are going to the extreme to teach the Father can be seen. You yourself agree that the words 'horao' and 'blepo' can be used in both ways but when it comes to Father you are determined to interpret it as a literal seeing. This is the inconsistency in interpretation because John 1:18 and 1 Tim 6:16 uses 'oudeis' which means 'NOT EVEN ONE' has seen Alahim at anytime which you are not considering at all. You don't understand that Alahim used the angelic representation when he appeared in divers manners which you assume to be a Person called Word besides another person called Alahim. You did not consider all the scriptures I presented on the angelic representation and ignored all of them as though these don't exist in the bible. I asked you simple questions like why Messiah comes with the voice of archangel as stated in 1 Thess 4:16 which you have no answer to.
You also did not consider Gal 3:19 'arranged thoroughly by angels' and was only persistent to stick to the word mediator in that verse without reading verse 20 of Gal 3 which says that the mediator was not one but Alahim is One.
I won't waste much time on the word 'blepo' but once again the context determines it's usage.
Re 22:8 And I John saw(blepo) these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen (blepo), I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
John saw the entire events written by him in Book of Revelation as a VISION. He saw SPIRITUAL IMAGERY in VISIONS
Re 1:1 ¶ The Revelation of Yahusha Messiah, which Alahim gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent andsignified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Re 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Yahuah's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
So though he saw things but they would mean nothing to anyone if not compared with the rest of Alahim's word and without spiritual understanding of Alahim's word.
The blind man whose eyes Messiah opened and he saw (blepo) and everyone would see the things the blind man now is seeing (blepo) like trees, stones, buildings etc but what John saw (belpo) may not be seen/understood (blepo) by many except for the elect of Alahim.
One needs eyes of faith to 'blepo'
Heb 11:1 ¶ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (blepo).
Finally the verse you quoted to show 'blepo' to mean that it is a literal seeing of the Father
Mt 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold (blepo) the face (prosopon: person/outward appearance) of my Father which is in heaven.
The outward appearance of the the Father is Messiah who is the only prosopon. The Father is invisible.
Col 1:19 For it pleased that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Alahimhead (theotes) bodily.
1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise Alahim, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible Alahim, the firstborn of every creature
Angels learn the mystery of Alahim from the church (the manifold wisdom of Alahim) when they minister to Alahim's elect and in this way learn who their Alahim is
Heb 1:6 ταν δὲ πάλιν εἰσαγάγῃ τὸν πρωτότοκον εἰς τὴν οἰκουμένην, λέγει· καὶ προσκυνησάτωσαν αὐτῷ πάντες ἄγγελοι Θεοῦ.
(Hotan : When ) (de: and/moreover) (palin: furthermore) (eisago: brought) (ho: that) (prototokos: firstborn) (eis: into) (ho: that) (oikoumene: world) (lego: saying) (kai:and) ( proskuneo: worship) (autos: him) (pas: all) (aggelos: messengers) (theos: Alahim)
In English: And when futhermore he brought that firstborn into that world saying " And worship him all angels of Alahim"
The world that the firstborn was brought into is in reference to the world to come and this was fulfilled when he was glorified. He was seen as their Alahim for the first time by angels
Heb 2:5 ¶ For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
That's why the writer of Hebrews uses the word PALIN which means 'futhermore/again' because Messiah was brought into the world we live in as a MORTAL and again(Palin) when raised to the world to come.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also
Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
Finally 1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: Alahim was manifest in the flesh, rendered in the Spirit, seen(optanomai) of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
optanomai means to gaze with wide open eyes
Mt 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see (optanomai) Alahim.
Alahim is invisible so only one seen and represents the invisible Alahim is Messiah.
Messenger,
You do not believe Scripture.
You do not believe Scripture when it tells you that Yahuah appeared to Moses and Abraham. (The similitude of Alahim Yahuah was Alahim Yahuah, the Word)But you deny this, because it absolutely evidences that the Word was living individual before he became flesh.
You do not believe Scripture when it tells you that the Word was Alahim (Yahuah). (Because if the Word was Yahuah, obviously the Word spoke, as a living individual, to Moses and Abraham. But this is against your belief.)
You do not believe Scripture when it tells you that the Word, Alahim, became flesh. (You deny that Alahim, the Father, sent the Word. So, your doctrine amounts to the Father coming Himself. But you also deny that the Father sent Himself or that He sent the Word who was with Him.) You state opposing doctrine, and deny the doctrine on both sides. Very deceptive. But this must be done to cleverly conceal demonic doctrine. Yet, the Spirit of Truth discerns it.
You do not believe Scripture when it tells you that the Son is 'Alahim'. (The Father calls the Son, whom he begot by His Holy Spirit, 'Alahim'. So, the Man Messiah Yahusha, was the Son of Alahim, Alahim, and the Son of Man, Man. You confess that he was Man, but deny that he was Alahim. Therefore your denial is against the Father's own testimony, and is antichrist. "He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son."
You do not believe Scripture when it tells you that Yahusha is not the Holy Spirit. (One may speak a word against the Son. But to speak against the Holy Spirit is an eternal sin. Obviously, then, Yahusha is NOT the Holy Spirit.)
Alahim bless
You are misrepresenting his appearances to mean person called WORD without proper scripture exegesis. Alahim's word refutes you. I believe the testimony of scriptures and will go with Alahim's word. Thanks for your concern anyway. I have the same concern for you so that you come out of error into all truth.
To show, again, that you are deceptive and do not give the full meaning of words-- Horao can be used to see with the eyes or to see with the mind, or both. Here are a few other examples:
"No one has seen (horao) Alahim at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him." --John 1:18 (If no one has seen or known the Father, then who was Alahim Yahuah whom Moses saw and knew??? It was The Word, the Son, Messiah Yahusha who existed in the form of Alahim before he humbled himself and came in the form of men.) To see Messiah was to see Alahim, because he was the Word, who was Alahim Yahuah, whose form Moses saw. To know him was to know Alahim, because he is the image and glory of Alahim.
"For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see (horao) all things subjected to him." --Hebrews 2:8
"By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw (horao) he was a beautiful child ; and they were not afraid of the king's edict." --Hebrews 11:23
"Take notice that our brother Timothy has been released, with whom, if he comes soon, I will see (horao) you." --Hebrews 13:23
"And that He appeared (horao) to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared (horao) to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep ; then He appeared (horao) to James, then to all the apostles ; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared (horao) to me also." 1 Corinthians 15:5-8
So, very clearly, 'horao' is used of seeing with the eyes, as well as with the mind.
"Yahusha said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen (horao) Me has seen (horao) the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
It is obvious that to see Yahusha is not to see the Father literally, because Yahusha is NOT the Father. He is the image of the Father. (So, this Scripture alone disproves 'Oneness' theology that Yahusha is the Father.)
My Response in blue:
Thom1000 I agree that the word 'horao' means to behold/see but the context determines it's usage and I very clearly refuted you using John 8:38
Joh 8:38 ¶ I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen (horao) with your father.
The word 'father' is singular which I am bolding and is used for devil and it's not father's as you say. You changed the whole meaning of that verse when you said ..."Because Yahusha and the Pharisees literally saw things that their fathers did, and saw, with their minds, their fathers' character by the things which they saw with their eyes" and you didn't even realize you were agreeing with me when I said in my post that the seeing refers to seeing the NATURE and not the PERSON. So in this way you must be consistent with interpreting the first part of the passage when Messiah says that he speaks what he has seen with his Father-You cannot interpret it as saying that Messiah saw the PERSON/IMAGE of FATHER. Inconsistency is now becoming the hallmark of your errors.
I can give you many examples to show you the erroneous conclusions
3Jo 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of Alahim: but he that doeth evil hath not seen (horao) Alahim.
So tell me Thom1000 if we go by your interpretation then all those who have and are doing good have seen Alahim. Is that the way you take these passages to teach Word was a person besides person called Alahim and that the Father has a shape/image. You make Col 1:15 meaningless because it says that Messiah is the image of the invisible Alahim but to you Father is invisible only to man but is visible to Messiah, is visible to angelic beings and all those in heaven.
1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen (horao) him, neither known him.
I totally agree with you that the word 'horao' means to see either literally or either with the mind but the problem is that you are taking John 6:46, John 8:38 and other places where it means to see with the mind to mean LITERALLY which shows you are bent towards showing that your theology is right instead of allowing Alahim's word to interpret it's context and the use of words to bring out the true meaning.
You also quote John 1:18 to teach a literal seeing without understanding that the remainder of the verse says that the Son of Alahim was in the bosom of Alahim not besides him. You agreed in your post on the meaning of 'exerchomai' that the coming out was from within but are still holding on the position that the Son came from besides Alahim.
Joh 1:18 NOT EVEN ONE (oudeis) hath seen (horao) Alahim at any time; the only begotten Son, which WAS in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
You have also quoted scriptures which do mean a literal seeing which I don't dispute and you use these scriptures in the correct context because these scriptures don't crumble your theology but you use it to show I am wrong in using the word 'horao' in it's context. The readers can read for themselves that the context and the meaning of the word used in that context determines the outcome.
The word 'blepo' can also be used in both ways, but it used more so with actually seeing with the eyes bodily.
"But I say to you that everyone who looks (blepo) at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." --Matthew 5:28
"Then the Pharisees also were asking him again how he received his sight. And he said to them, "He applied clay to my eyes, and I washed, and I see (blepo)." --John 9:15
"Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see (blepo) the face of My Father who is in heaven."
You are going to the extreme to teach the Father can be seen. You yourself agree that the words 'horao' and 'blepo' can be used in both ways but when it comes to Father you are determined to interpret it as a literal seeing. This is the inconsistency in interpretation because John 1:18 and 1 Tim 6:16 uses 'oudeis' which means 'NOT EVEN ONE' has seen Alahim at anytime which you are not considering at all. You don't understand that Alahim used the angelic representation when he appeared in divers manners which you assume to be a Person called Word besides another person called Alahim. You did not consider all the scriptures I presented on the angelic representation and ignored all of them as though these don't exist in the bible. I asked you simple questions like why Messiah comes with the voice of archangel as stated in 1 Thess 4:16 which you have no answer to.
You also did not consider Gal 3:19 'arranged thoroughly by angels' and was only persistent to stick to the word mediator in that verse without reading verse 20 of Gal 3 which says that the mediator was not one but Alahim is One.
I won't waste much time on the word 'blepo' but once again the context determines it's usage.
Re 22:8 And I John saw(blepo) these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen (blepo), I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
John saw the entire events written by him in Book of Revelation as a VISION. He saw SPIRITUAL IMAGERY in VISIONS
Re 1:1 ¶ The Revelation of Yahusha Messiah, which Alahim gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent andsignified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Re 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Yahuah's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
So though he saw things but they would mean nothing to anyone if not compared with the rest of Alahim's word and without spiritual understanding of Alahim's word.
The blind man whose eyes Messiah opened and he saw (blepo) and everyone would see the things the blind man now is seeing (blepo) like trees, stones, buildings etc but what John saw (belpo) may not be seen/understood (blepo) by many except for the elect of Alahim.
One needs eyes of faith to 'blepo'
Heb 11:1 ¶ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (blepo).
Finally the verse you quoted to show 'blepo' to mean that it is a literal seeing of the Father
Mt 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold (blepo) the face (prosopon: person/outward appearance) of my Father which is in heaven.
The outward appearance of the the Father is Messiah who is the only prosopon. The Father is invisible.
Col 1:19 For it pleased that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Alahimhead (theotes) bodily.
1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise Alahim, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible Alahim, the firstborn of every creature
Angels learn the mystery of Alahim from the church (the manifold wisdom of Alahim) when they minister to Alahim's elect and in this way learn who their Alahim is
Heb 1:6 ταν δὲ πάλιν εἰσαγάγῃ τὸν πρωτότοκον εἰς τὴν οἰκουμένην, λέγει· καὶ προσκυνησάτωσαν αὐτῷ πάντες ἄγγελοι Θεοῦ.
(Hotan : When ) (de: and/moreover) (palin: furthermore) (eisago: brought) (ho: that) (prototokos: firstborn) (eis: into) (ho: that) (oikoumene: world) (lego: saying) (kai:and) ( proskuneo: worship) (autos: him) (pas: all) (aggelos: messengers) (theos: Alahim)
In English: And when futhermore he brought that firstborn into that world saying " And worship him all angels of Alahim"
The world that the firstborn was brought into is in reference to the world to come and this was fulfilled when he was glorified. He was seen as their Alahim for the first time by angels
Heb 2:5 ¶ For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
That's why the writer of Hebrews uses the word PALIN which means 'futhermore/again' because Messiah was brought into the world we live in as a MORTAL and again(Palin) when raised to the world to come.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also
Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
Finally 1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: Alahim was manifest in the flesh, rendered in the Spirit, seen(optanomai) of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
optanomai means to gaze with wide open eyes
Mt 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see (optanomai) Alahim.
Alahim is invisible so only one seen and represents the invisible Alahim is Messiah.
Messenger,
You do not believe Scripture.
You do not believe Scripture when it tells you that Yahuah appeared to Moses and Abraham. (The similitude of Alahim Yahuah was Alahim Yahuah, the Word)But you deny this, because it absolutely evidences that the Word was living individual before he became flesh.
You do not believe Scripture when it tells you that the Word was Alahim (Yahuah). (Because if the Word was Yahuah, obviously the Word spoke, as a living individual, to Moses and Abraham. But this is against your belief.)
You do not believe Scripture when it tells you that the Word, Alahim, became flesh. (You deny that Alahim, the Father, sent the Word. So, your doctrine amounts to the Father coming Himself. But you also deny that the Father sent Himself or that He sent the Word who was with Him.) You state opposing doctrine, and deny the doctrine on both sides. Very deceptive. But this must be done to cleverly conceal demonic doctrine. Yet, the Spirit of Truth discerns it.
You do not believe Scripture when it tells you that the Son is 'Alahim'. (The Father calls the Son, whom he begot by His Holy Spirit, 'Alahim'. So, the Man Messiah Yahusha, was the Son of Alahim, Alahim, and the Son of Man, Man. You confess that he was Man, but deny that he was Alahim. Therefore your denial is against the Father's own testimony, and is antichrist. "He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son."
You do not believe Scripture when it tells you that Yahusha is not the Holy Spirit. (One may speak a word against the Son. But to speak against the Holy Spirit is an eternal sin. Obviously, then, Yahusha is NOT the Holy Spirit.)
Alahim bless
You are misrepresenting his appearances to mean person called WORD without proper scripture exegesis. Alahim's word refutes you. I believe the testimony of scriptures and will go with Alahim's word. Thanks for your concern anyway. I have the same concern for you so that you come out of error into all truth.
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