Are angels Person/s? -Part 2-Discussion from Carm forums

My response in blue

[QUOTE]Wow. Out of all my dialogues with you, I haven't had any answers? [/QUOTE]

Thom1000 you are being dishonest. I have answered all questions you asked me but you have not. What about ignoring John 16:27 and John 17:8? Didn't you ignore these scriptures till date because these scriptures crumble your theology where you state Messiah was the person called Word besides Alahim and he came from besides Alahim? These scriptures are clear Messiah came out of Alahim.

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I didn't answer your questions because the mediator of the Old Covenant was Moses, and the Mediator of the New Covenant is Yahusha Messiah. Period. Simple. 

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It is simple to you because you don't want to see the whole counsel of Alahim. You want to remain with the simplicity of only what you want to see. The questions I asked you were not made up questions but from Alahim's word. So is it safe for me to assume that when Thom1000 is reading the bible and when he reads those scriptures he just skips those passages because it doesn't make sense to him and he is not interested to search out the matter?

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(I've even dialogued with 'Messiahians' who even try to prove from Scripture that the saints are saved by destruction in the Lake of Fire, the Second death. That is simply false. What do you think? But Scripture can be twisted out of context to make certain things appear plausible. But thank Alahim for the Holy Spirit who teaches the saints to see! Jehovah's Witnesses also 'spiritualize' or 'symbolize' many things in Scripture, teaching it out of context. Sometimes you remind me of them. I'm not saying that everything you speak of in a spiritual way is false. But a lot of it is off. It only takes a little deviance to be far off from the truth. You sometimes 'spiritualize' things so much that you end up in opposition to the fundamentals.) 

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That's off topic. We are not discussing lake of fire and I am not interested in what discussions you have had with other Messiahians on various other topics. I can see clearly that you are not interested in the things of Alahim and you just omit passages from the discussion as though they don't exist in the Bible. You are dishonest in discussion because you don't want to see what the opponent is saying and not even address it.[QUOTE]If you are attempting to say that angels are mediator of the Covenant, then that is against Scripture. Performing certain functions in conjunction to the mediator does not make one the mediator. 

So, is that what you are saying? That Moses was not the only Mediator of the Old Covenant, but angels were too? And that Yahusha Messiah is not the only Mediator of the New Covenant, but angels are too? 

You have not proven from Scripture that angels, who assist in certain things, are the mediator. Scripture says Moses was the mediator. Angels were not the high priest either. Yahusha Messiah is the Mediator and the High Priest. Angels are not our Mediator or High Priest. Are you saying otherwise?

Am I missing the point? Let me know please.

Here is what you wrote before regarding the mediator of the Old Covenant and the Mediator of the New Covenant:And here is what I posted:

Mediator of Old Covenant-- Moses:"Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator". --Galatians Chapter 3

Mediator of New Covenant-- Yahusha Messiah:"...to Yahusha the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel." --Hebrews Chapter 12

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The discussion was on the 'ANGEL OF THE YAHUAH' and Alahim's representation of Angel which you assume was the person called Word. I am showing you from Alahim's word that you are in complete error in making such an assumption based on these appearances.

Ex 3:2 And the angel of the YAHUAH appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Ac 7:30 ¶ And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Yahuah in a flame of fire in a bush.

Alahim's word says Alahim is invisible and no man has ever seen Alahim at anytime.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen Alahim at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

You and other trins claim that Moses saw Alahim and spoke to him face to face and deny that Alahim's appearances were mediatoral and through a REPRESENTATION which was not a IMAGE OF GOD but his similitude (of what the Son would be).

If you would focus on the appearance of Alahim as an angel of the Yahuah in a flame of fire and compare what Bible says about the angelic representation and the ministration of angels in this representation you would see the whole picture. I can show you this.

 Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

The Greek word for 'ministers' is 'leitourgos' which means a functionary in the Temple or Gospel. The Angelic representation/appearance was a functionary in the OT Temple and the Gospel of Messiah. Alahim himself appeared in the functionary of this representation. He even used angels Gabriel and Michael who also were functionary representations of Messiah. I showed you the meanings of Gabriel and Michael names. That's why we see Messiah coming with the voice of archangel because he is the fulfillment of that ministration of flame of fire

1Th 4:16 For the Yahuah himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of Alahim: and the dead in Messiah shall rise first:

John sees Messiah's eyes as the flame of fire. Why eyes? What does this symbolize? Because his representation was seen in these angelic representations/appearances like the one on Sinai-angel of the Yahuah in a flame of fire

Re 2:18 ¶ And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of Alahim, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

Gabriel comes from the words 'geber' and 'el' and geber means MAN and el means GOD. So in English MAN of GOD

Michael comes from three words in Hebrew 'miy' 'kiy' 'el'

Miy means 'Who'
KIY means 'assuredly'
'el' means 'Alahim'

Who assuredly is as Alahim.

Both these titles point to the Mediatoral role of Messiah and fulfilled by Messiah as just as he is the head of man he is head of all principality and power. Col 2:10

Moreover our discussion passage was Gal 3:19 which shows us this truth

Ga 3:19 ¶ Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was arranged thoroughly by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Angelic representation was used by the invisible Alahim in appearances to show us the mystery of Messiah. I also showed you from Jude 1:10 and comparison with Zec 3 passages where the dispute of Satan was not for the literal body of Moses but the ministry of high priesthood which was imperfect as the high priest needed to offer sacrifice for himself first and then for the sins of the people and there was a change of raiment given to Yahusha the high priest which allowed him to continue till the perfect high priest came i.e Messiah.

Consider these passages which are synonymous with the victory Messiah would get for his people over Satan (by his death and resurrection) who accused them before Alahim through the law. What does Zec 3:2 passage say?

Zec 3:2 And the YAHUAH said unto Satan, The YAHUAH rebuke thee, O Satan; even the YAHUAH that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

What does Jude say?

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Yahuah rebuke thee.

The war that John speaks in heaven is not a literal war but the war Messiah won against Satan by the cross. John quotes that Michael and his angels fought. Also Daniel uses Michael the prince who stands up for his people-pointing to Messiah standing for his people.

Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our Alahim, and the power of his Messiah: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our Alahim day and night. 

Alahim used angelic representation to give the law (Gal 3:19), to guard the pattern (Messiah) and we can see this by Alahim placing Cherubim in the garden of Eden with a flaming sword which turned every way to guard the tree of life and tree of life is symbolic of Messiah.

Ge 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Cherubims were even overshadowing the mercy seat from where Alahim said he would speak to Aaron and Moses from between the cherubims.

Ex 25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel. 

So these appearances were not a Person called Word as you state but Alahim's representation/appearance of Angel of the Yahuah based on futuristic mediatoral role of the Son. The ministration of the flame of fire was fulfilled through Messiah who is the image of the invisible Alahim and hence the symbolism used of his eyes being a flame of fire. Alahim used angels who were part of this representation and even they did not know until the mystery was revealed through Messiah. Alahim always is invisible and not even one can approach him (1 Tim 6:16). The invisible Alahim is only found in Messiah who is his image.

Speaking about spiritual things. The Bible is a spiritual book and one needs to be spiritual to connect to Alahim. Only Alahim can make that connection.

 Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Lastly the voice of the Yahuah divides the flames of fire-shows the distinction which you assume person of Son of Alahim before he actually came, thus you have the cart before the horse

Ps 29:7 The voice of the YAHUAH divideth the flames of fire.

Isa 66:15 ¶ For, behold, the YAHUAH will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the YAHUAH plead with all flesh: and the slain of the YAHUAH shall be many.

Compare Isaiah 66:15-16 with "The Yahuah rebuke thee". Satan and his people were rebuked at the cross and it was determined by the measuring line who would belong to Messiah and who wouldn't. This is MEDIATION-Messiah mediates both the wrath and the mercy of Alahim.

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