My response in blue
Thank you. Thank you for you honesty.
So, Messiah, whom you say is the Quickening Spirit-- is he still a person/individual now? Yes or no?
This can be said only of Messiah because he represents Alahim to man and man to Alahim. He is the MEDIATOR and no one else is. That's why 1 Corin 15:45 says Last Adam a Quickening Spirit.
Last Adam a Person our representative and Quickening Spirit Alahim's representation.
No other man or anyone else in heaven and on earth can be in this WAY. Messiah is 'THE WAY' 'THE LIFE' John 14:6
Hope you see this truth?
Messiah, who is uncreated and came out from Alahim, is a person, (as you agree). The angels whom Alahim created, are persons. And you and I, whom Alahim created, are persons. Also, your son, who comes out from you, is a person, who is not you. And your wife, who is one with you, is a person, who is not you.
No Angels are not person/s, they are spirits (pneuma) Heb 1:7. They did not come out from Alahim. They are no MEDIATOR/s. They were part of the mediation of the law but not the mediator who came out from Alahim. Only Messiah came out from Alahim and partook flesh and blood and is the only PROSOPON
Ga 3:19 ¶ Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
All men are PERSONS because we can be seen, felt, touched, spoken to, heard from, relate to as husband, wife, mother father, son etc (relationships) and it behoved Messiah be be like us in every way
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to Alahim, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham
A person is not just a human, as you know. A person is one who has individual self, and characteristics unique to that self. (Even dogs have individual self; unique 'personalities'. One dog's 'person' is not the same as another.) I am aware that when we say 'person', most of us think of a human. But we are not the only ones who have individual self and personality. Humans are greater than dogs. Angels are even greater than humans. And Alahim is far greater than angels.
No No No No Dogs are not persons. They are not like us in anyway. They may display some characteristics like intelligence, faithfulness etc but NO they are not Persons. They are not in the plan of salvation, they have only one relationship with man, the man is their master and the dog is the subject to that master. No dog can be our father, mother, son etc so you got this completely wrong. That's why I asked you to see the dictionary meaning of a person.
I'm sure that I don't have to evidence that the created angels are individuals, do I? The angel Gabriel is not the angel Michael. And Michael is not Satan, whom he was disputing with over Moses' body. They are individuals.
Thom1000 like I said the Angels were part of the mediation of Alahim's word before the actual MEDIATOR came and hence we have Paul saying in 1 Thess 4:16 that Messiah will come with the voice of the archangel which you have no clue about
1Th 4:16 For the Yahuah himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of Alahim: and the dead in Messiah shall rise first:
Since you brought up Gabriel and Michael, look up their names in Hebrew to find out what they mean. Let me help you.
Gabriel comes from the words 'geber' and 'el' and geber means MAN and el means GOD. So in English MAN of GOD
Michael comes from three words in Hebrew 'miy' 'kiy' 'el'
Miy means 'Who'
KIY means 'assuredly'
'el' means 'Alahim'
Who assuredly is as Alahim.
Both these titles point to the Mediatoral role of Messiah and fulfilled by Messiah as just as he is the head of man he is head of all principality and power. Col 2:10
Ga 3:19 ¶ Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Till Messiah the MEDIATOR came angels were part of the mediation. Remember when Adam and Eve sinned Alahim placed a Cherubim in the garden of Eden and a flaming sword to guard the tree of life lest man eat of it and live forever. That's exactly what scripture says. Just because these angels appeared doesn't mean they are persons. They were just ministering spirits who worked in the office of mediatorship till the actual Mediator came who is Messiah. Their names point to Messiah.
'm sure that I don't have to evidence that the created angels are individuals, do I? The angel Gabriel is not the angel Michael. And Michael is not Satan, whom he was disputing with over Moses' body. They are individuals.
The angels that rebelled and didn't keep their station, but sinned and follow the cause of Satan, is proof that they are individual persons who made and make choices. Even the demons who possessed the demoniac man, called Legion, showed that they were many, and had individuality, and were self-aware of their upcoming torment in the judgement.
So, how can we enjoy the deep things of Alahim with one another, if such elementary common sense things are disputed? It is a hindrance. But if we together believe what is written, then we will be of one mind.
Michael was not not disputing the actual body of Moses. Again one needs spiritual ears to understand what is being said here. Moses represents the law and Satan was the accuser of the brethren who through the law accused Alahim's people
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Yahuah rebuke thee.
Michael did not accuse devil of his sins before Alahim but prophesised in the name of the Yahuah. The Yahuah rebuke thee and this was fulfilled when Messiah died on the cross thus destroying the works of the devil. We must compare spiritual with spiritual.
Jude is quoting Zech 3 not the actual body of Moses. Zec 3:2 says Yahuah said unto Satan, the Yahuah rebuke thee. Jude records that the words were said by Micahel the archangel
Zec 3:1 ¶ And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the YAHUAH, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2 And the YAHUAH said unto Satan, The YAHUAH rebuke thee, O Satan; even the YAHUAH that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
There is no contradiction here because Satan can never ever come before Alahim's presence to accuse man, satan's accusation is through the law and man stands guilty before Alahim because there is not a man who has not broken Alahim's law except for Messiah the perfect high priest. He accused the imperfection of the high priesthood of the law (Joshua the high priest)
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
It's interesting to see the name 'Yahusha' which means Yahuah saved. The very name of our Yahuah. The high priest in the OT stood in the name of our Yahuah (Yahusha our Savior) who is the MEDIATOR and offered sacrifice for their sins first and then the sins of the people. Satan doesn't know Alahim's wonderful plan and hence he accused the office of the high priest making the high priest guilty before Alahim. Satan saw the imperfection of the law and thought he was victorious in getting the whole world guilty of sin through the law, even the office of a high priest, but Michael prophesied (as stated by Jude) and prophecy is as it is from the mouth of Alahim (Zec 3:2 says Yahuah said) and the prophecy was "The Yahuah rebuke you"
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Messiah kept the law perfectly and he is the high priest who needeth not daily to offer sacrifice for himself. Even for the people he did it once when he offered up himself. Messiah has redeemed us from the curse of the law (Gal 3:13). He is the perfect high priest.
There was a change of priesthood. This truth can be seen in the Zec 3 verses
Zec 3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
There was a change of for raiment/garment/priest hood
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Alahim allowed the office of the imperfect high priesthood inspite of the accusation till the perfect high priest came and all OT high priest stood in the office of the Yahuah Yahusha.
Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Messiah, that we might be justified by faith.
Ga 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
These are spiritual things which need comparing spiritual with spiritual. These appearances of angels of being part of mediation doesn't mean these angels are PERSONS and that they have hands, feet,eyes, nose etc as we do. They are ministering spirits and we must believe Alahim's word. When sent they appeared in a form to convey the message of Alahim but you can't catch that form and say he looks just like me so he is a Person.
Thank you. Thank you for you honesty.
So, Messiah, whom you say is the Quickening Spirit-- is he still a person/individual now? Yes or no?
This can be said only of Messiah because he represents Alahim to man and man to Alahim. He is the MEDIATOR and no one else is. That's why 1 Corin 15:45 says Last Adam a Quickening Spirit.
Last Adam a Person our representative and Quickening Spirit Alahim's representation.
No other man or anyone else in heaven and on earth can be in this WAY. Messiah is 'THE WAY' 'THE LIFE' John 14:6
Hope you see this truth?
Messiah, who is uncreated and came out from Alahim, is a person, (as you agree). The angels whom Alahim created, are persons. And you and I, whom Alahim created, are persons. Also, your son, who comes out from you, is a person, who is not you. And your wife, who is one with you, is a person, who is not you.
No Angels are not person/s, they are spirits (pneuma) Heb 1:7. They did not come out from Alahim. They are no MEDIATOR/s. They were part of the mediation of the law but not the mediator who came out from Alahim. Only Messiah came out from Alahim and partook flesh and blood and is the only PROSOPON
Ga 3:19 ¶ Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
All men are PERSONS because we can be seen, felt, touched, spoken to, heard from, relate to as husband, wife, mother father, son etc (relationships) and it behoved Messiah be be like us in every way
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to Alahim, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham
A person is not just a human, as you know. A person is one who has individual self, and characteristics unique to that self. (Even dogs have individual self; unique 'personalities'. One dog's 'person' is not the same as another.) I am aware that when we say 'person', most of us think of a human. But we are not the only ones who have individual self and personality. Humans are greater than dogs. Angels are even greater than humans. And Alahim is far greater than angels.
No No No No Dogs are not persons. They are not like us in anyway. They may display some characteristics like intelligence, faithfulness etc but NO they are not Persons. They are not in the plan of salvation, they have only one relationship with man, the man is their master and the dog is the subject to that master. No dog can be our father, mother, son etc so you got this completely wrong. That's why I asked you to see the dictionary meaning of a person.
I'm sure that I don't have to evidence that the created angels are individuals, do I? The angel Gabriel is not the angel Michael. And Michael is not Satan, whom he was disputing with over Moses' body. They are individuals.
Thom1000 like I said the Angels were part of the mediation of Alahim's word before the actual MEDIATOR came and hence we have Paul saying in 1 Thess 4:16 that Messiah will come with the voice of the archangel which you have no clue about
1Th 4:16 For the Yahuah himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of Alahim: and the dead in Messiah shall rise first:
Since you brought up Gabriel and Michael, look up their names in Hebrew to find out what they mean. Let me help you.
Gabriel comes from the words 'geber' and 'el' and geber means MAN and el means GOD. So in English MAN of GOD
Michael comes from three words in Hebrew 'miy' 'kiy' 'el'
Miy means 'Who'
KIY means 'assuredly'
'el' means 'Alahim'
Who assuredly is as Alahim.
Both these titles point to the Mediatoral role of Messiah and fulfilled by Messiah as just as he is the head of man he is head of all principality and power. Col 2:10
Ga 3:19 ¶ Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Till Messiah the MEDIATOR came angels were part of the mediation. Remember when Adam and Eve sinned Alahim placed a Cherubim in the garden of Eden and a flaming sword to guard the tree of life lest man eat of it and live forever. That's exactly what scripture says. Just because these angels appeared doesn't mean they are persons. They were just ministering spirits who worked in the office of mediatorship till the actual Mediator came who is Messiah. Their names point to Messiah.
The angels that rebelled and didn't keep their station, but sinned and follow the cause of Satan, is proof that they are individual persons who made and make choices. Even the demons who possessed the demoniac man, called Legion, showed that they were many, and had individuality, and were self-aware of their upcoming torment in the judgement.
So, how can we enjoy the deep things of Alahim with one another, if such elementary common sense things are disputed? It is a hindrance. But if we together believe what is written, then we will be of one mind.
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Yahuah rebuke thee.
Michael did not accuse devil of his sins before Alahim but prophesised in the name of the Yahuah. The Yahuah rebuke thee and this was fulfilled when Messiah died on the cross thus destroying the works of the devil. We must compare spiritual with spiritual.
Jude is quoting Zech 3 not the actual body of Moses. Zec 3:2 says Yahuah said unto Satan, the Yahuah rebuke thee. Jude records that the words were said by Micahel the archangel
Zec 3:1 ¶ And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the YAHUAH, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2 And the YAHUAH said unto Satan, The YAHUAH rebuke thee, O Satan; even the YAHUAH that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
There is no contradiction here because Satan can never ever come before Alahim's presence to accuse man, satan's accusation is through the law and man stands guilty before Alahim because there is not a man who has not broken Alahim's law except for Messiah the perfect high priest. He accused the imperfection of the high priesthood of the law (Joshua the high priest)
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
It's interesting to see the name 'Yahusha' which means Yahuah saved. The very name of our Yahuah. The high priest in the OT stood in the name of our Yahuah (Yahusha our Savior) who is the MEDIATOR and offered sacrifice for their sins first and then the sins of the people. Satan doesn't know Alahim's wonderful plan and hence he accused the office of the high priest making the high priest guilty before Alahim. Satan saw the imperfection of the law and thought he was victorious in getting the whole world guilty of sin through the law, even the office of a high priest, but Michael prophesied (as stated by Jude) and prophecy is as it is from the mouth of Alahim (Zec 3:2 says Yahuah said) and the prophecy was "The Yahuah rebuke you"
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Messiah kept the law perfectly and he is the high priest who needeth not daily to offer sacrifice for himself. Even for the people he did it once when he offered up himself. Messiah has redeemed us from the curse of the law (Gal 3:13). He is the perfect high priest.
There was a change of priesthood. This truth can be seen in the Zec 3 verses
Zec 3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
There was a change of for raiment/garment/priest hood
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Alahim allowed the office of the imperfect high priesthood inspite of the accusation till the perfect high priest came and all OT high priest stood in the office of the Yahuah Yahusha.
Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Messiah, that we might be justified by faith.
Ga 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
These are spiritual things which need comparing spiritual with spiritual. These appearances of angels of being part of mediation doesn't mean these angels are PERSONS and that they have hands, feet,eyes, nose etc as we do. They are ministering spirits and we must believe Alahim's word. When sent they appeared in a form to convey the message of Alahim but you can't catch that form and say he looks just like me so he is a Person.
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