Angels complete in Messiah

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!  

 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of Alahim: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Lucifer desired to rule as Alahim in the church though Messiah was still a mystery to him or any angels till the cross. 

1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Yahuah of glory.

Though the Bible doesn’t directly tell us when angels were created but they were created  when Alahim created the heavens Gen 1:1.Only the description of what was created on earth is given and not of heaven where angels are but Alahim's word says Alahim gathers all things in heaven and on earth to himself in Messiah. Col 1:15 says he is the firstborn over all creation.

Notice the fullness of time/s

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Messiah, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 

Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, Alahim sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Messiah in the fullness of time (the cross) gathers in one all things which are in heaven and on earth in him.

1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of Alahim; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

  

Why was there a need to gather the angels in heaven in Messiah? Are they not perfect? 

Perfection only comes through Messiah. He only is the perfect one who as the Son was OBEDIENT in all things to Alahim the Father. If angels were perfect they would not fall as some of them fell which we call Satan and demons.

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Their habitation is imperfect without BEING IN CHRIST. 

2Pe 2:4 For if Alahim spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

What was the temptation made to Eve? 

Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:5 For Alahim doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.6 ¶ And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Paul says when a bishop is ordained; he should not be a novice lest he be lifted up with pride and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 

1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

Alahim’s word tells us what this condemnation of the devil was.  Daniel was not present when Lucifer fell (Eze 28:3) but Alahim says that his loftiness was that no secret can be hidden from him and his pride that he is wiser than Daniel (to be as a Alahim instead of learning from Daniel (church) who reveals the manifold wisdom of Alahim). This was the will of Alahim for angels that they learn from Church and that’s why Word of Alahim says ‘Men did eat angels food’ (Psalms 78:5).

Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Compare with Re 19:12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

 

Re 2:18 ¶ And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of Alahim, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

Ac 7:30 ¶ And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Yahuah in a flame of fire in a bush.

The Angel of the Yahuah in a flame of fire who appeared to Moses in the bush represents Yahusha who is the head of all principality and angelic beings. His eyes a flame of fire: revealing who Alahim is. 

Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

 

The language in Eze 28 is hyperbole (an over statement which cannot be taken literally but figuratively)

Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Yahuah GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a Alahim, I sit in the seat of Alahim, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not Alahim, though thou set thine heart as the heart of Alahim:3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:

Lucifer’s heart was lifted up thinking he is wise whereas only Messiah is the WISDOM of GOD. He is the SECRET PLACE OF THE MOST HIGH/Hidden wisdom

Ps 91:1 ¶ He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.

Ps 119:114 ¶ Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.

That’s why the elect angels desire to look unto and learn from the church the manifold wisdom of Alahim because they understand Alahim’s will in this for them. They find their completeness in Messiah who is the image of the invisible Alahim.

Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of Alahim

The angels who realized their incompleteness were the elect angels (though they had no sin in them)  whereas Lucifer thought he was complete in wisdom. The angels saw their completeness in Messiah (figuratively) who was invisible (hidden/mystery) and learnt the manifold wisdom of Alahim through the church  when prophecy was unfolded.

If they were perfect there was no need for them to learn from the church the manifold wisdom of Alahim, they would have it inherently when they were created. The state of man was the same. Adam and Eve though not yet sinned were still incomplete without Messiah ( both were naked but not ashamed)

1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil was a symbol of WISDOM which is outside of Alahim.

1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with Alahim. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.20 And again, The Yahuah knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

Eve and Adam fell in the same condemnation of the devil by eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil desiring to be as Alahim. The hidden wisdom (Messiah the tree of life) was a mystery which Alahim ordained before the world unto our glory.

1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of Alahim in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which Alahim ordained before the world unto our glory:

The angels who left their first estate/habitation (Jude 1:6) were the ones who thought they were complete without Messiah (Messiah was a mystery). They did not see their need to be in Messiah.

Jas 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

We can learn from the principle which Paul speaks about the need for a woman to cover her head.

1Co 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

The elect angels learn from the woman (church who is under the covering of her husband Messiah) 

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Messiah; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Messiah is Alahim.

Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Messiah and the church.

Peter says the angels greater in power do not accuse sinful men before Alahim who despise the government of Messiah.

2Pe 2:10 ¶ But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Yahuah.

In conclusion Messiah is the head of both man as well as principalities and powers

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Messiah; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Messiah is Alahim.

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Elect man and Elect angels are subjected to him but prideful man and stiff neck spirits (Satan and demons) will be subjected to him when they will bow their knee to him.

Php 2:10 That at the name of Yahusha every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Who are the 144000 in book of Revelation by Larry

The book of Revelation was written to whom? It was written to the Messiahians of the first century? What did the 144,000 mean to the first century Messiahians? We only look over their shoulders to see what it meant to them and then we can see what it means to us - just like all the books in the Bible. None were written directly to us.

The correct listing of the 12 tribes of Israel from the book of Chronicles...
1 Chron. 2:1-2 (KJV)

These are the sons of Israel;
Reuben,
Simeon,
Levi,
Judah,
Issachar,
Zebulun,
Dan,
Joseph,
Benjamin,
Naphtali,
Gad,
Asher.

The symbolic listing of the tribes (144,000) in REVELATION.

JUDAH – Who came from the tribe of Judah? Who was the firstborn of the New Covenant? The firstborn was always listed first - and in the O.T. listing the firstborn is always Reuben. But in this symbolic listing Judah is first - WHY!! Because the firstborn of this company of people is Yahusha. He is at the head of this group of people and the name Judah means “praise.”
Reuben - who sees the son
Gad - a band; a troop
Asher – happiness
Naphtali - that struggles or fights
Manasseh - forgetfulness
Simeon - that hears or obeys
Levi - associated with him
Issachar - reward; recompense
Zebulun - dwelling; habitation
Joseph - increase
Benjamin - son of the right hand
(Benoni) - son of my sorrow, or pain

So the meaning of the 144,000 is contained in the meaning of the names and that of the Firstborn. Why did Alahim use space in the Bible to describe the birth of these 12 boys in the first place?

The first question that has to be answered is, why is John's list a botched up mess? Can't he remember the proper listing of the tribes of Israel. No one has given a good and logical reason for this that I have heard. The reason that it is "Botched" up is because he is drawing symbols out of the Old Testament and he does this all through the book of Revelation.

So the "symbolic" picture of the 144,000 is a company of the people of Alahim for all time who at their head is the firstborn Son seated at Alahim’s right hand. A company of people who are happy and full of praise. An army who fights and obeys the one who has forgotten all of their sins; and they will increase and receive a reward and dwell with him forever. This was good news in particular to someone facing starved lions in the arenas of Rome.

As Rachel lie dying of childbirth with Benjamin – she named him “Benoni” that means “son of my suffering.” Jacob said no - he will be called “Benjamin” – son of my right hand. What a beautiful picture of Messiah we have been given. He is our Benoni - Benjamin.
Reference:

Genesis 35:17-18 (NASB)
And it came about when she was in severe labor that the midwife said to her, "Do not fear, for now you have another son." 18 And it came about as her soul was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.

So what about the two tribes that were left out? They simple did not fit the message of the author...
Ephraim – fruitful
Dan - judgment
Alahim is not judging this company – they have escaped his judgment and wrath. You also need to take into account the fact that the 144,000 is mentioned in several places in Revelation. Are these all the same group or are they different? Lets look for a moment.

Rev. 7:4 (NASB)
And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

Rev. 14:1 (NASB)
And I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.

Rev. 14:3 (NASB)
And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.
After the the 12 tribes were listed, John looked and saw the 12 tribes that were just described and here is what he saw.

Rev. 7:9 (NASB)
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

Looks to me like its all the same group that we described initially, but instead of being “Sealed” they had the name of the Son and the Father on their foreheads - Same difference. In 14:3 they were purchased from the earth – the persecuted and martyred Saints of Alahim. Same group as the others all associated by the number 144,000. It relates first to the people to whom it was written in appx 87AD, but after that - to all Saints who have been tested on the Earth including us today. The redeemed company of the Yahuah were the only ones who could learn the new song because it was a song learned from the trials and tribulations of life on Earth. Does this make sense to you?

Numbers in the Book of Revelation are “Symbols” and not arithmetic. 144,000 is 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10. These are numbers which symbolize the unknown number of believers in this group. Revelation had to be simple for the people to understand in their day because a lot of the Messiahians then were slaves, illiterate, gentiles.

So why do I think this is the correct interpretation of the 144,000? Several reasons. First of all this interpretation is simple, and It also meant something to the Messiahians of the First century. It means something to all Messiahians of all ages throughout history from out of its original context - including us today, and will be a blessing to those who are yet to be born - should the lord delay his coming even longer. It doesn’t change with time or with current events; and it doesn’t just apply to a few select people somewhere out in the distant, obscure future.

Unfortunately today we seem to seek complication and direct relevance to the 21st century. We have to learn to seek out the simple message of John to the first century Messiahians before we know what it means to us..

Dividing Schechem and meting out the valley of Succoth

Ps 60:6 ¶ Aluahym hath spoken in his qodesh; I will rejoice, I will divide Shacham, and mete out the valley of Sukkoth.
 7 Gilead is mine, and Manasseh is mine; Ephraim also is the strength of mine head; Yahudah is my lawgiver;
 8 Moab is my washpot; over Edom will I cast out my shoe: Philistia, triumph thou because of me.
 9 Who will bring me into the strong city? who will lead me into Edom?
 10 Wilt not thou, O Aluahym, which hadst cast us off? and thou, O Aluahym, which didst not go out with our armies?
 11 Give us help from trouble: for vain is the help of man.
 12 Through Aluahym we shall do valiantly: for he it is that shall tread down our enemies.

Measuring line:

1) Shacham

Aluahym dividing Shacham-the place where Cannanites dwelt and this land was promised land which Aluahym promised Abraham (v 7 of Gen 12) that he would give to his seed

Ge 12:6 ¶ And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Shacham, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.
 7 And YAHUAH appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the YAHUAH, who appeared unto him.

Sukkoth means booths and the same word is used for the feast of Yahuah 'Sukkoth':

Ge 33:17 And Jacob journeyed to Sukkoth, and built him an house, and made booths for his cattle: therefore the name of the place is called Sukkoth

Schechem reveals that the Cannanites who dwelt in this place were driven away to make place for the people of Aluahym (Physically fulfilled when Yasharal came into the promised land where Yahusha (Joshua) divided their inheritance by lots).

Sukkoth reveals separation of wheat from the tares, this is the place where the externally covenanted people are, where once the elect of Aluahym (Jacob) built the house and dwelt there but no longer lives there as its now inhabited by the external covenant people who seem to be blessed with material possessions whereas Aluahym's people have no inheritance. (This is the outer court where Gentiles are trampling)

Re 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Pslams 60 defines who belong to him and who do not

Gilead, Manasseh, Ephraim, and Judah belongs to him (elect-Yaqoob I have loved)

Moab, Edom, Philistia are measured out and separated from him (non elect: Esau have I hated)

These same scriptures are mentioned in Psalms 108:7-13 as well.

Ps 108:7 Aluahym hath spoken in his holiness; I will rejoice, I will divide Shacham, and mete out the valley of Sukkoth.
 8 Gilead is mine; Manasseh is mine; Ephraim also is the strength of mine head; Judah is my lawgiver;
 9 Moab is my washpot; over Edom will I cast out my shoe; over Philistia will I triumph.
 10 Who will bring me into the strong city? who will lead me into Edom?
 11 Wilt not thou, O Alahim, who hast cast us off? and wilt not thou, O Alahim, go forth with our hosts?
 12 Give us help from trouble: for vain is the help of man.
 13 Through Alahim we shall do valiantly: for he it is that shall tread down our enemies.

The elect are troubled, there is no one apart from Alahim who will lead his elect into the strong city. He will tread down our enemies.

Mercy Rejoiceth over Judgment

Jas 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

James talks about loving your neighbor as thy self and in verse 8 says that this law is a royal law

Jas 2:8 ¶ If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Why was this law royal? To understand this we must understand who is our neighbour.

Yahusha illustrated with an example Luke 10: 29-37. The Samaritan who poured oil and wine (symbolic of gospel) into the wounds of the man smitten by thieves (Satan and his fellows) was none other than Messiah who led the front with an example of love and compassion.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to Alahim, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Ga 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Messiah laid down his life for us and asks us to follow his footsteps.

 1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Messiah also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Messiah demonstrated his love for us in pouring oil and wine into our wounds. The Great King emptied himself for us. Because of his great love and compassion he became like one of us and demonstrated that love by dying for us. That is why it is a royal law. All those who follow this royal law are judged by the law of liberty and hence mercy rejoiceth over judgment.

Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Whenever Alahim sent judgments on Israel for their sins he made provision for the atonement for their sin and demonstrated that mercy rejoiceth over judgment.When Alahim sent fiery serpents to bite Israelites for  their sin of speaking against Alahim's bread from heaven he sent them fiery serpents. The bread from heaven (manna) represented Messiah which the Israelites loathed and so the fiery serpents but we see Alahim's compassion in asking Moses to make a fiery serpent on the pole and everyone bitten by the snake when he looks at the fiery serpent on the pole shall live.

Nu 21:5 And the people spake against Alahim, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread. 6 And the YAHUAH sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

Nu 21:8 And the YAHUAH said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

In rejecting the bread of heaven these people rejected Messiah and Paul speaks of this in 1 Corin10.

1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Messiah, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

 Ps 78:25 Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full

What was not revealed to angels (the mystery of Alahim and of Messiah) was revealed to his elect and symbolized by the literal manna from heaven sent to the people of Israel from heaven.Those who understand the mystery of Alahim and of Messiah are the elect who will be judged by the law of liberty and they fulfill the royal law of Alahim by loving their neighbour as their own self. They will pour oil and wine (preach the truth of Messiah/gospel) into the wounds of those smitten by the thief(Satan). This is true love.

Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

 1Pe 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

This fulfillment of the royal law will cover a multitude of sins. The gospel of Messiah heals those who are stricken by the Devil. Those who loathe the Bread from heaven will find the manna bred with worms in it. They will not find the true and living bread which came down from heaven. The manna that breds worms are the false doctrines like Trinity, Yahusha as creation of Alahim(Jehovah's witnesses), Unitarism which distort the mystery of Alahim and of Messiah.

Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of Alahim, and of the Father, and of Messiah;
 3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
 4 ¶ And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

Those who deny that Messiah came out from Alahim and went back to Alahim and is ascended far above the heavens from where he descended are lost in their sins because they do not acknowledge the mystery of Alahim.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: Alahim was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

 Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.

The One and only true and living Alahim whom even the angels did not see as in transcendence no one can see Alahim was revealed to us through Messiah who is the image of the invisible Alahim.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible Alahim, the firstborn of every creature:

All those denying the mystery of Alahim will be bitten by fiery serpents and those who will find the mercy of Alahim will be the elect who will see the Cross and acknowledge the mystery of Alahim and be saved.

Daniel 12-Last days

This is in line with my study on David numbered Israel and Alahim's Dividing line/measuring line
Da 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
 5 ¶ Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Yahuah, what shall be the end of these things?
 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

1) Daniel is told to shut up the words and seal the book to the time of the end. v 4 and 9
2) Daniel sees sees two one one this side of the bank of the river and the other on that side of the river and the one asks the other who was clothed with linen how long shall it be to the end of these wonders and the man in linen held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times and a half.
Cross is the dividing/measuring line and can be seen by the fact of two(two fold witness-law and the prophets) fulfilled by Messiah who  determines the destiny by his solemn oath that it will be for time, times and dividing of time. This same picture can be seen in Revelation 10:1-7
The angel who illuminates the earth (by his revelation and wisdom) is Messiah.
He set his right foot upon the sea and left on the earth and cried with a loud voice and when he cried the seven thunders uttered their voices (7 thunders symbolic of Alahim's complete judgment) and John is forbidden to write what the seven thunders uttered and is asked to seal it. This same angel sweareth by him who liveth for ever and ever that there is time no longer Rev 10:6

Now what is this all referring to?

Re 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of Alahim should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
The mystery of Alahim being finished. This is the whole vision.
1) Cross is the dividing/measuring line: Through the Cross the mystery of Alahim is revealed.(who Alahim is and that Messiah came out from Alahim and went back to him being ascended high above the heavens) 2) The image of Alahim (which was a mystery) was always distorted by Satan resulting in Alahim's judgments on Israel for their sin and rebellion in worshiping false Babylonian gods (the Lion) against the true and living Alahim. 3) While the mystery of Alahim was revealed to the elect through the cross as the dividing line, the mystery Babylon was revealed to the elect when they saw the Abomination that maketh Desolate. This is nothing but Satan seated as Alahim in the temple showing himself as Alahim. 2 Thess 2. Satan distorting the mystery of Alahim by false doctrine (pagan Trinity, Unitarian view, Jehovah witness etc which is his spiritualized version of paganism).
Now let's quickly focus on Daniel being told to seal the book till the time of the end. When did the end time begin?

Peter on day of Pentecost stood and said that what was happening was as promised that in the last days saith Alahim ' I will pour out of my Spirit upon all fles...." Acts 2:17
Alahim has spoken in these last days through his SON. This again shows Messiah as the dividing/measuring line

 Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
1Pe 1:20 Who(Messiah)verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

1Jo 2:18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
This mystery of Alahim is revealed through Messiah the measuring line

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
 27 To whom Alahim would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Messiah in you, the hope of glory:
The last times/days began with the Cross as the center point and that's the whole vision of Daniel to seal the book till the time of the end and furthermore what the seven thunders uttered was forbidden to be written as it was sealed and only the one who swore by him who liveth for ever and ever would reveal it as there was time no longer.

David numbered Israel-short outline-What it means? Alahim's Dividing/Measuring line

David numbered Israel 2 Sam 24:1-25. Why was it a grievous sin to number Israel?

In the same account in Chronicles we read 1Ch 27:23 But David took not the number of them from twenty years old and under: because the YAHUAH had said he would increase Israel like to the stars of the heavens.

 David did not use the measuring line as per instruction of Alahim. David forgot that Alahim was the great king and he was only a servant in the house of Alahim and only at the hands of Alahim it was required to number Israel not through will worship. Moses had also numbered the house of Israel but at the instruction of Alahim. The purpose was every man give a ransom for his soul unto the Yahuah that there be no plague when they are numbered.

Ex 30:11 ¶ And the YAHUAH spake unto Moses, saying,
12 When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the YAHUAH, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them.
Ex 30:13 This they shall give, every one that passeth among them that are numbered, half a shekel after the shekel of the sanctuary: (a shekel is twenty gerahs an half shekel shall be the offering of the YAHUAH.
14 Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the YAHUAH.

David tried to imitate by not measuring those twenty years old and below(only those above) but not with a purpose of every man giving a ransom unto the Yahuah. The ransom is symbolic of sacrifice of Messiah which is the measuring line.

Ezekiel saw a vision of this:

Eze 40:3 And he brought me thither, and, behold, there was a man, whose appearance was like the appearance of brass, with a line of flax in his hand, and a measuring reed; and he stood in the gate.(in Chapter 42 we see can read about him measuring the temple)

Zechariah also saw Messiah with a measuring line: Zec 2:1 ¶ I lifted up mine eyes again, and looked, and behold a man with a measuring line in his hand.

In David's measuring there was no ransom paid. Later when he repented on instruction of Gad the seer he offered the ransom as per Alahim's measuring line.

2Sa 24:17 And David spake unto the YAHUAH when he saw the angel that smote the people, and said, Lo, I have sinned, and I have done wickedly: but these sheep, what have they done? let thine hand, I pray thee, be against me, and against my father's house. 18 ¶ And Gad came that day to David, and said unto him, Go up, rear an altar unto the YAHUAH in the threshingfloor of Araunah the Jebusite.19 And David, according to the saying of Gad, went up as the YAHUAH commanded.

The Angel who revealed to John the revelation of Messiah had the golden reed to measure the city. This angel unfolding these revelations to John is sent by to show that Messiah is the one who alone measures the temple with his dividing line(ransom).

Re 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

The language is symbolic and we read John is given a reed like unto a rod to measure but there is no record of John doing the measuring.

Re 11:1 ¶ And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of Alahim, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


He thrusts in the sickle to separate the wheat and the tares. The land will be divided by line:

Am 7:17 Therefore thus saith the YAHUAH; Thy wife shall be an harlot in the city, and thy sons and thy daughters shall fall by the sword, and thy land shall be divided by line; and thou shalt die in a polluted land: and Israel shall surely go into captivity forth of his land.

La 2:8 The YAHUAH hath purposed to destroy the wall of the daughter of Zion: he hath stretched out a line, he hath not withdrawn his hand from destroying: therefore he made the rampart and the wall to lament; they languished together.

Ps 78:55 He cast out the heathen also before them, and divided them an inheritance by line, and made the tribes of Israel to dwell in their tents.

David's sin was symbolic of pride of a human king for determining his strength and he did not look at the people of Israel as the people who were subject to the great king Messiah. Only Messiah can measure and draw the line because he is the one who harvests (thrusts in the sickle of judgment to gather and to scatter).David was given 3 choices of judgment but he chose to be in the hands of the Yahuah who is merciful and not fall in the hands of man. There was a plague for 3 days where 70 thousand people died in Israel.

3 days:

Joh 2:19 Yahusha answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Yahusha death is the measuring line which separates the elect from the non elect(those who profess that they belong to Messiah). He is the refiners fire and fullers soap. He is the rock of offense and the stumbling block.

Isa 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

It is dangerous to fall in the hands of Messiah

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to Alahim by Yahusha Messiah.
.....1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

Those professing Messiah verbally will not be able to stand before Messiah's measuring line. It is impossible to measure his temple by man. When Jerusalem is struck with the plague/judgment the elect are also affected because they were part of the same bundle with the tares, fornicating and doing things which are abominable but in a way it is the mercy of the Yahuah that he has placed the dividing line so that we are not judged along with the world.
The death of Messiah is the measuring line of man's destiny and only he will determine who will be measured into his temple and who will be in the outer court trampling the holy city.

Revelation 13:9-10 If any man have an ear, let him hear. [10] He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Messiah became captive for us by descending into the lower parts of the earth. He has the key of hades and of death . Notice in Revelation 3:9 if any man have ear let him hear. Our captivity is identified with Messiahs (we are identified by his death). Sword (remember Yahusha tells his disciples to carry swords in garden just before his death). He tells Peter he who kills with the sword will be killed by it. He was numbered with the transgressor's (Isaiah 53:12).
The one who captivated Israel for their sin was Alahim and one who killed with the sword of judgement was Alahim. Now he(Alahim) who captivated and killed with the sword went through captivity and sword himself to redeem Israel to give a ransom himself. His own arm brought Israel salvation.
By his captivity he led captivity captive and gave gifts to men (freedom).

Ephesians 4:8-10 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. [9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? [10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Let him who has ears let him have ears. Those identified with Messiah will suffer tribulation jus as he did.

Eph 4:30 , 2Corin 1:22. The sealing of elect and binding and loosing of Satan is synonymous. Rev 7. The 4 winds loosed after elect are sealed. The strong man was bound by stronger man Messiah. To the elect he is bound and this is the reign of 1000 years that elect have( forever).
Satan is loosed/his wound is healed in a sense that the measuring line has determined who belongs to Messiah and who to Satan. Jacob I have loved and Esau I've hated. So Satan uses Esau to persecute Jacob. Ishmael to Isaac.

Galatians 4:29-30 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. [30] Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

This is all because of the measuring line. Satan sees the hedge (Alahim's ownership on Job, this shows Job was sealed and Satan knew it) as it was for Job and couldn't harm him because of it and needed Alahims permission. Job is an example of the elect who suffer tribulation and distress. It seemed to Job that Alahim had hidden his face from him but in all his affliction Alahim was with him. Yahusha said that the bridegroom will be taken from them and then they will fast (his face hidden). This is our sanctification that we may be worthy of his kingdom .

1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Messiah hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

He is the refiners fire purifying his children that we may stand besides him as the gold of Ophir

Isaiah 13:12-13 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. [13] Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Yahuah of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

The true church is likened to gold of Ophir. Job is an example of what will become of us and just as his end was better than his beginning even so with us. More later.

On the lines of Rev 13:9-10. Yahusha said he is not come to bring peace but a sword. From now on father will be against his son.

This 2 edged sword (Logos) has proceeded to bring in the dividing line. Alahim made light to shine out of darkness and separated the light from darkness and call the light day and the night darkness. We are children of light not of night.

Great tribulation : Pray that your flight be not in winter or Sabbath day for then there will be GT as never was.

Winter is harvest time and he who sat on the cloud thrust his sickle to gather and to scatter. Sabbath again is day of rest for Alahim people but unrest to those with the mark of the beast.

Revelation 14:11 KJV
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The flight in Winter or on Sabbath day is the Day of the Yahuah when alas it will be too late. That's why scriptures warn us ' Today if you will hear his voice harden not your hearts'.
Satan knows his time his short when he sees Messiah s seal on us. He chases us as a thorn in our flesh.
In all this we will be victorious. National Israel was a type and we are part of the Israel of Alahim. What happened with them physically happens to us spiritually. Just as Satan tried to make Israel sin by making them believe in false gods and only those who were not Israel but were Jews by name fell even so now. The dividing line determines this.

Time, times and dividing of time of Daniel is also stated as 42 months of Gentiles treading under foot the holy city and three years and six months(no rain when Elijah prayed James 5:17)
These are not literal years but are symbolic of entire periods of judgments where Alahim set his measuring line to DIVIDE his people from those who are not. 

42 months: Judges 12. Men of Ephraim(tribe of Israel) came against Jephthah(judge-a type of Messiah) and they were slain of them forty and two thousand.

Rev 13:5 the beast was given a mouth speaking great blasphemies and he was given power to continue forty and two months.

2 Kings 2:24 Elisha curses the children who mock him and two she bears come out of the wood and tear the children. Elisha again a type of Messiah and the number 42 shows the judgment period. These children were from Bethel (place where Jacob dreamed of ladder going to heaven) 2 Kings 2:23

Ge 31:13 I am the Alahim of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.


Three years and six months: Lu 4:25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;


There were many widows but Elijah(type of Messiah) was sent only to one widow. Again shows dividing line.

Jas 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.


Time, times and dividing of time: Da 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


This is the same period where it says that the saints were given into Satan's hands for time, times and dividing of time. There seems to be a contradiction when we read the woman representing elect is nourished for time and times and half a time from the face of the serpent. But when we understand the measuring line of Messiah we understand that time and judgment is always part and parcel of a believers life. We are persecuted by Satan and in Great Tribulation but at the same time Alahim protects us and nourishes us while we are near Satan's throne.

Re 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Re 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.


The entire body of Messiah goes through Great Tribulation. This is not a privilege only to end time believers as Harold Camping and company have always portrayed or even for a matter of fact Tony Silva. They don't see the dividing line/measuring line of Messiah which divides the wheat from the tares in every generation.The term time, times and dividing of time shows that the Logos pierces time with his two edged sword to divide asunder the spirit soul and body ,the thoughts and intents of men's heart that determine who are HIS and who are not HIS.

More on Did Angels see their Alahim?

Quote one must consider if the angels are to worship their creator. if the angels were created and the son has created everything that was created --- we then must consider ; we are missing something here .End Quote


Knowing who Messiah is was a mystery and it was hid since the beginning of the world in Alahim (Divinely planned within himself). Alahim is invisible and all things were made in perspective of Messiah who is the image of the invisible Alahim. Here are some scriptures to consider which teach that the manifold wisdom of Alahim is made known by the church to the principalities and powers in heavenly places (Angels in ranks or authority)

Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Messiah;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in Alahim, who created all things by Yahusha Messiah:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of Alahim,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Messiah Yahusha our Yahuah:

The angels understand the mystery of Alahim through the work of Alahim in the church in revealing who Messiah is

1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Yahusha in being externalized from Alahim (came out from Alahim John 16:27, John 17:8) became like his brethren in every way because it pleased him to be like his brethren in every aspect. In this lowly form (made little lower than the angels as Psalms 8 teaches) for the first time the angels would see their creator and hence the declaration

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of Alahim worship him.

If the angels already knew who their Alahim was then this declaration would not make any sense as they would have seen Messiah creating them as Eternal Son as Trinity doctrine teaches and all these scriptures would mean nothing. The Mystery was unfolded through the revelation of who Messiah is. He is Alahim in immanence, both of angels and mankind and beasts etc.

All things were made through him and for him: Both in heaven and on earth which makes him firstborn over all creation that he may be pre-eminent.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible Alahim, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him

Creation is attributed to him in transcendence when Alahim planned within himself that he would manifest to his creation in being face to face with his creation. The Light of the knowledge of the glory of Alahim through the face of Messiah.

2Co 4:6 For Alahim, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of Alahim in the face of Yahusha Messiah.

Moreover Paul speaks about this mystery of Alahim. He says that the mystery of godliness is great

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: Alahim was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Notice the words 'seen of angels'. Prior to this angels did not see their Creator as Alahim in transcendence dwells in an unapproachable light

1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which nothing (oudeis) can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

We also see Paul speaking of the mystery of Alahim's will which he purposed in himself that in the fulness of time he might gather together in one all things in Messiah both in heaven (angels) and all things on earth (man, beast, kingdoms etc)

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Messiah, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

The whole family in heaven and earth is named/related to Alahim the Father through Messiah who sits as the visible image of the invisible Alahim on Alahim's throne forever and ever.

Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of Alahim; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

The angels are made subordinate/subject to Messiah when their understanding is opened to see Messiah as their Alahim in immanence

Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of Alahim, and of the Father, and of Messiah;

Finally coming back to 1 Tim 3:16 Alahim was manifest in the flesh (Word was made flesh), justified in the Spirit: The Word justified is not in the literal sense of he being made righteous as we are but being rendered in the Spirit ( as the Quickening Spirit 1 Corin 15:45, 2 Corin 3:17) and seen(signifies an earnest but more continued inspection) of angels which ties up with the verse where Peter speaks of angels desiring to look into the revelation of who Alahim is through the work of Alahim through his church.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: Alahim was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Did Angels See their Alahim?

Originally Posted by all4Him The real question is why would the angels worship anyone but Alahim alone? What does that make the Son if He is to be worship? There is a large debate on the interpretation of this passage. Don't you find it interesting if the Son is before all things and is instructed to be worship, but did not know when the day or hour. Perhaps, He did not know during His incarnate state, but listen what the disciple said about Him. Joh 16:29 His disciples said to Him, "See, now You are speaking plainly, and using no figure of speech! Joh 16:30 Now we are sure that You know all things, and have no need that anyone should question You. By this we believe that You came forth from Alahim." All things would include His second coming. Because He was made flesh..i.e. became human. As all humans grow, they learn. If the Son is before all things, what does that tell you? If the Son created, what does that tell you? Or do you deny Scripture? Define "always internal to Alahim." all4him, The John 16:29-30 passage you quote to prove that Yahusha had Eido (inherent knowledge) is the most pitiable interpretation you Trin folks have. Sometimes you say Phil 2 that the Son emptied himself and from eternal Son became Son of man and then also quote passages to teach he was both Alahim and man when on earth (hypostatic nature) I will answer my questions from what the Bible teaches us: 1) Why did Alahim have to declare to angels to worship the Son when he brought his first begotten in the world? They would have already have known him as the Eternal Son Because there was no Son before the incarnation. The angels got the revelation of who their Alahim was by looking at the work of Alahim through prophecy and it's fulfillment. That is the declaration " Let all the angels of Alahim worship him" 1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. Alahim is invisible and before the incarnation Alahim in transcendence was dwelling in an unapproachable light 1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man (oudeis) can approach unto; whom no man(anthropos) hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. Oudeis: means not even one or nothing anthropos; means man/human being The verse should read 1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which nothing (oudeis) can approach unto; whom no man(anthropos) hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. The angels saw their Alahim in immanence in Messiah just as we see. There was no eternal Son and hence the declaration. 2) Why did the Son not know the day and the hour? 3) Why was there a need for the Son to grow in Alahim's wisdom and need for him to be connected to Alahim through prayer and fellowship? He is eternal Son na, always internal to Alahim??? In incarnation the Son was not hybrid but completely Mortal. In Externalization he was emptied of Eido and hence was externally connected to Alahim through fellowship with him. He had his own rational soul, spirit and body. 1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Yahusha Messiah is come in the flesh is not of Alahim: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. He was not immortal in flesh. if he was then he could never have died. All Messiahians confess Yahusha is come in the flesh but 99% Messiahians deny he came as mortal and this is what John means, he who denies Messiah came as a mortal that spirit is antichrist. Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to Alahim, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. By making him hybrid you Trins disqualify him to be the LAMB of Alahim because scriptures teach he became like his brethren in all things. ALL THINGS In the days of his flesh His knowledge, Wisdom and understanding came from Alahim through being externally connected to him. Re 2:8 ¶ And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; The worst Trin interpretation I have heard is that Yahusha died in his human nature and in his Divine nature he was alive in heaven and after 3 days his spirit entered his body and he raised himself up. The loop holes in Trin theology is clearly visible. The truth is for our sake because he loved us he externalized himself to be face to face with creation in a visible image. He came out from Alahim and went back to Alahim (John 16:27, John 17:8). He is now the Quickening Spirit as the last Adam. The visions Isaiah and Ezekiel saw of him is fulfilled as he sits on Alahim's throne as the Son. Alahim within himself planned his Divinity be manifested through a visible image. 2 Corin 4:6 shows us the revelation of the divine utterance " Let there be light" In him was life and the life was the light of men. 1Jo 1:1 ¶ That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word (Logos) of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us) John uses the Word Logos because this was a MYSTERY which is now revealed through the Son who is the Logos of Alahim made flesh. You are right that he introduces the Son but the context you are saying is wrong, John was not teaching an Eternal Son/ trinity. Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of Alahim, and of the Father, and of Messiah; 1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: Alahim was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. Notice the words 'seen of angels'. Angels were seeing their Alahim in immanence when it was revealed to them who their Alahim is. Even the angels did not know the MYSTERY of GOD and it was revealed to them through prophecy through the prophets and apostles just as it was to the church. No Trinity, no Eternal Son Originally Posted by alphaomega3160 one must consider if the angels are to worship their creator. if the angels were created and the son has created everything that was created --- we then must consider ; we are missing something here . Hi, Knowing who Messiah is was a mystery and it was hid since the beginning of the world in Alahim (Divinely planned within himself). Alahim is invisible and all things were made in perspective of Messiah who is the image of the invisible Alahim. Here are some scriptures to consider which teach that the manifold wisdom of Alahim is made known by the church to the principalities and powers in heavenly places (Angels in ranks or authority) Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Messiah; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in Alahim, who created all things by Yahusha Messiah: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of Alahim, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Messiah Yahusha our Yahuah: The angels understand the mystery of Alahim through the work of Alahim in the church in revealing who Messiah is 1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. Yahusha in being externalized from Alahim (came out from Alahim John 16:27, John 17:8) became like his brethren in every way because it pleased him to be like his brethren in every aspect. In this lowly form (made little lower than the angels as Psalms 8 teaches) for the first time the angels would see their creator and hence the declaration Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of Alahim worship him. If the angels already knew who their Alahim was then this declaration would not make any sense as they would have seen Messiah creating them as Eternal Son as Trinity doctrine teaches and all these scriptures would mean nothing. The Mystery was unfolded through the revelation of who Messiah is. He is Alahim in immanence, both of angels and mankind and beasts etc. All things were made through him and for him: Both in heaven and on earth which makes him firstborn over all creation that he may be pre-eminent. Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible Alahim, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him Creation is attributed to him in transcendence when Alahim within himself that he would manifest to his creation in being face to face with his creation. The Light of the knowledge of the glory of Alahim through the face of Messiah. 2Co 4:6 For Alahim, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of Alahim in the face of Yahusha Messiah. Moreover Paul speaks about this mystery of Alahim. He says that the mystery of godliness is great 1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: Alahim was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. Notice the words 'seen of angels'. Prior to this angels did not see their Creator as Alahim in transcendence dwells in an unapproachable light 1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which nothing (oudeis) can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. We also see Paul speaking of the mystery of Alahim's will which he purposed in himself that in the fulness of time he might gather together in one all things in Messiah both in heaven (angels) and all things on earth (man, beast, kingdoms etc) Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Messiah, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: The whole family in heaven and earth is named/related to Alahim the Father through Messiah who sits as the visible image of the invisible Alahim on Alahim's throne forever and ever. Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of Alahim; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. The angels are made subordinate/subject to Messiah when their understanding is opened to see Messiah as their Alahim in immanence Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of Alahim, and of the Father, and of Messiah; Finally coming back to 1 Tim 3:16 Alahim was manifest in the flesh (Word was made flesh), justified in the Spirit: The Word justified is not in the literal sense of he being made righteous as we are but being rendered in the Spirit ( as the Quickening Spirit 1 Corin 15:45, 2 Corin 3:17) and seen(signifies an earnest but more continued inspection) of angels which ties up with the verse where Peter speaks of angels desiring to look into the revelation of who Alahim is through the work of Alahim through his church. 1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: Alahim was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. Shodan

WHY A SON?

 Originally Posted by Messenger 

 Originally Posted by civic 

Messenger how did the Father send the Son if no Son existed?

hope thus helps,

Civic,

How is a Son born into this World? In the same way. The Son did not pop down from heaven LOL. He was born through the virgin birth.

Alahim's breath inseminated the Logos into the seed of the woman and the holy one born through her was called the Son of Alahim

Lu 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of Alahim.

Do you know the need of a SON?

If you understand these terms in scripture and their relation to usward will you understand the need of a Son

'firstborn over all creation'
'firstborn from the dead'
'firstborn among many brethren'
'firstfruits of them who slept'

Messiah is all this as a SON so that we be ADOPTED as sons of Alahim

Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father

Ga 4:6 And because ye are sons, Alahim hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Yahusha was not an adopted Son. He naturally called his Father as 'Abba Father'

Mr 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

I/We can relate to Alahim only through His Son. That's why Alahim planned within himself that he would externalize himself to be immanent to his creation through a visible image and Messiah is our immanent Alahim.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O Alahim, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Now think for a moment, your doctrine of Trinity states that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all Alahim then why had Alahim to declare only to the Son " Thy throne O Alahim is forever and ever..."

Why not to the Holy Spirit " Thy throne O Alahim is forever and ever.."?

That's because Alahim planned within himself that his Divinity be manifested bodily as stated in Col 2:9 'theotes bodily' so that he could reconcile/enjoin his creation to himself through His Son.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that Alahim was in Messiah, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation

Scriptures show 'immediate creation' 'mediate creation' and 'pro-creation'

Immediate creation and mediate creation is a CREATION. Something made out of nothing.

Adam was immediate creation. Alahim's breath into him made him a living soul Gen 2:7. Let Us in Gen 1:26 is not Alahim conversing with his Son but Alahim planning within himself his Divinity bodily (Eph 1:11). In simple words Alahim is making means of man to be related to him through an image.

Ro 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Alahim's WISDOm/LOGOS is personified because the Logos was externalized finally to be the Son through whom Alahim would relate to mankind. 'Let Us' is Alahim's Logos who was externalized figuratively/prophetically speaking of the SON through whom the creation would relate to himself. Since the Logos and the SON are coterminous and the eternalness of the Logos is the eternalness of the Son it was as though the SON was present at creation because all creation was for HIM. BY HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST.

You cant have the cart before the horse and that's what Trinity does by making the Son an eternal SON.

'Mediate creation'

Alahim's breath was sufficient to create life through a SEED when he said "Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth"

Ge 1:28 And Alahim blessed them, and Alahim said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

So when a husband and wife come together the life that Alahim breathed into the seed brings forth life in combination of the biological properties of the parents and thus a child is born.

One is born again by the incorruptible seed of Alahim

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word (Logos) of Alahim, which liveth and abideth for ever.

If Messiah is the firstborn-the REAL SON---I FOLLOW HIM because scripture says that he is the firstborn among many brethren.
I am born again through the LOGOS made flesh in me. Messiah in ME the hope of Glory.

Col 1:27 To whom Alahim would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Messiah in you, the hope of glory:

This proves that Alahim's substance was manifested for distribution and not multiplication.

Logos was made flesh and dwelt amongst us John 1:14
I am born again by the same Logos of Alahim (Messiah in me the hope of glory)

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of Alahim doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of Alahim.

Messiah is the SEED. The LOGOS made flesh.

He took not on him the nature of angels but the SEED of ABRAHAM. He is the FIRSTBORN not the ETERNAL BORN as you Trins teach.

Finally 'PRO-CREATION' : The SON was not created but was existent as the LOGOS. John 1:14 And the Logos was made flesh and dwelt amongst us.

He was very much present in the 'immediate creation as I showed you ' Let us' (As a CREATOR)
He was very much present in the 'mediate creation' as I showed you 'SEED' and the 'FIRSTBORN' ( AS A CREATOR)
He is very much present in his 'pro-creation' (AS A CREATOR humbling himself and becoming part of HIS CREATION)

Heb 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. Quote from the prophetic Psalm 22:22
Heb 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which Alahim hath given me. Isaiah 8:18

ITS ALL ABOUT HIM. THIS IS HOW AND WHY THE SON WAS SENT

Hope this helps?

Messenger

The Brazen Serpent

Looking at Brass serpent in wilderness those who saw it were healed of the poison of the serpents, while we see this account as salvation account it fits more in elect fornicating as Israel did by asking meat in the wilderness (eating and drinking), they despised the true bread that came down from heaven (manna symbolic of Messiah the true bread that came down from heaven)

Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Nu 21:5 And the people spake against Alahim, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.

6 And the YAHUAH sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

Nu 21:8 And the YAHUAH said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

 Nu 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

What does this brazen serpent stand for?

The brazen serpent is Messiah in human nature different from us as he is sinless but he is identified with us serpents. He was numbered with the transgressors.

Mr 15:28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.

We are like serpents bringing out deadly poison

Ps 58:4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

Ps 140:3 They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent; adders' poison is under their lips. Selah.

John the Baptist called those who came to be baptized of him as generation of vipers (those not chosen by Alahim)

Lu 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Adopting his (Messiah’s) nature we are saved from the wrath of Alahim, from the poison of our own natures which secrete the poison to destroy us. Also the poisonous gospels which cause us to rebel against Alahim and sin against Him brings Alahims wrath but Messiah as our mediator saves those who look unto him for help.

What happened to Israel was an example for us

1Co 10:5 But with many of them Alahim was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 ¶ Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

9 Neither let us tempt Messiah, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Have we fornicated and lusted after flesh despising the manna from heaven? This is a question which we need to ask ourselves.

Taking up serpents, drinking deadly was the true gospel trampling the false one but in our human nature we were/are exploring wickedness by which we were/are deceived by false gospels and false doctrines and we think we are doing Alahims service as stated in Mark 16:17 to 18 by venturing into the forbidden.

Mr 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

The new tongues represent the true gospel which was sent forth as a Great Commission from Messiah through his apostles. We went out venturing false deadly gospels not testing what we hold with Alahim’s word but inspite of this it didn't harm us becoz of our brazen serpent who was lifted up to draw his elect to him.

The locusts from bottomless pit (place of being alienated from Life of Alahim where angels who sinned were confined to chains of darkness) with scorpion stings have always tried to harm the green (elect) but Messiah our brazen serpent has gulped all our abominable sins on the cross by taking the punishment of our nature on himself.

2Pe 2:4 For if Alahim spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Hebrews 2 says the it behoved him to be like his brethren in every way, he didn't take on him the nature of angels(elect messengers) but the seed of Abraham(fallen messengers)
,In every way he identified with us but sinless.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to Alahim, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Messiah is the one to lead us as he led Israel through the great and terrible wilderness protecting us from the scorpions, serpents who come to bite us, it’s time we examine every doctrine we hold testing it with a fiery test to see if it’s true lest we be bitten by the serpent in the wilderness.

De 8:15 Who led thee through that great and terrible wilderness, wherein were fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought, where there was no water; who brought thee forth water out of the rock of flint;

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Messiah

Man is so carnal that he doesn’t understand the symbolisms of Alahim’s word and twists it to suit his own theology; one such example is that this same brazen serpent which Moses had made was worshipped by Israel for many generations until Hezekiah broke it in pieces. They did not know or see what this brazen serpent represented.

2Ki 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: