Did Angels See their Alahim?

Originally Posted by all4Him The real question is why would the angels worship anyone but Alahim alone? What does that make the Son if He is to be worship? There is a large debate on the interpretation of this passage. Don't you find it interesting if the Son is before all things and is instructed to be worship, but did not know when the day or hour. Perhaps, He did not know during His incarnate state, but listen what the disciple said about Him. Joh 16:29 His disciples said to Him, "See, now You are speaking plainly, and using no figure of speech! Joh 16:30 Now we are sure that You know all things, and have no need that anyone should question You. By this we believe that You came forth from Alahim." All things would include His second coming. Because He was made flesh..i.e. became human. As all humans grow, they learn. If the Son is before all things, what does that tell you? If the Son created, what does that tell you? Or do you deny Scripture? Define "always internal to Alahim." all4him, The John 16:29-30 passage you quote to prove that Yahusha had Eido (inherent knowledge) is the most pitiable interpretation you Trin folks have. Sometimes you say Phil 2 that the Son emptied himself and from eternal Son became Son of man and then also quote passages to teach he was both Alahim and man when on earth (hypostatic nature) I will answer my questions from what the Bible teaches us: 1) Why did Alahim have to declare to angels to worship the Son when he brought his first begotten in the world? They would have already have known him as the Eternal Son Because there was no Son before the incarnation. The angels got the revelation of who their Alahim was by looking at the work of Alahim through prophecy and it's fulfillment. That is the declaration " Let all the angels of Alahim worship him" 1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. Alahim is invisible and before the incarnation Alahim in transcendence was dwelling in an unapproachable light 1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man (oudeis) can approach unto; whom no man(anthropos) hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. Oudeis: means not even one or nothing anthropos; means man/human being The verse should read 1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which nothing (oudeis) can approach unto; whom no man(anthropos) hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. The angels saw their Alahim in immanence in Messiah just as we see. There was no eternal Son and hence the declaration. 2) Why did the Son not know the day and the hour? 3) Why was there a need for the Son to grow in Alahim's wisdom and need for him to be connected to Alahim through prayer and fellowship? He is eternal Son na, always internal to Alahim??? In incarnation the Son was not hybrid but completely Mortal. In Externalization he was emptied of Eido and hence was externally connected to Alahim through fellowship with him. He had his own rational soul, spirit and body. 1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Yahusha Messiah is come in the flesh is not of Alahim: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. He was not immortal in flesh. if he was then he could never have died. All Messiahians confess Yahusha is come in the flesh but 99% Messiahians deny he came as mortal and this is what John means, he who denies Messiah came as a mortal that spirit is antichrist. Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to Alahim, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. By making him hybrid you Trins disqualify him to be the LAMB of Alahim because scriptures teach he became like his brethren in all things. ALL THINGS In the days of his flesh His knowledge, Wisdom and understanding came from Alahim through being externally connected to him. Re 2:8 ¶ And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; The worst Trin interpretation I have heard is that Yahusha died in his human nature and in his Divine nature he was alive in heaven and after 3 days his spirit entered his body and he raised himself up. The loop holes in Trin theology is clearly visible. The truth is for our sake because he loved us he externalized himself to be face to face with creation in a visible image. He came out from Alahim and went back to Alahim (John 16:27, John 17:8). He is now the Quickening Spirit as the last Adam. The visions Isaiah and Ezekiel saw of him is fulfilled as he sits on Alahim's throne as the Son. Alahim within himself planned his Divinity be manifested through a visible image. 2 Corin 4:6 shows us the revelation of the divine utterance " Let there be light" In him was life and the life was the light of men. 1Jo 1:1 ¶ That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word (Logos) of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us) John uses the Word Logos because this was a MYSTERY which is now revealed through the Son who is the Logos of Alahim made flesh. You are right that he introduces the Son but the context you are saying is wrong, John was not teaching an Eternal Son/ trinity. Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of Alahim, and of the Father, and of Messiah; 1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: Alahim was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. Notice the words 'seen of angels'. Angels were seeing their Alahim in immanence when it was revealed to them who their Alahim is. Even the angels did not know the MYSTERY of GOD and it was revealed to them through prophecy through the prophets and apostles just as it was to the church. No Trinity, no Eternal Son Originally Posted by alphaomega3160 one must consider if the angels are to worship their creator. if the angels were created and the son has created everything that was created --- we then must consider ; we are missing something here . Hi, Knowing who Messiah is was a mystery and it was hid since the beginning of the world in Alahim (Divinely planned within himself). Alahim is invisible and all things were made in perspective of Messiah who is the image of the invisible Alahim. Here are some scriptures to consider which teach that the manifold wisdom of Alahim is made known by the church to the principalities and powers in heavenly places (Angels in ranks or authority) Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Messiah; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in Alahim, who created all things by Yahusha Messiah: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of Alahim, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Messiah Yahusha our Yahuah: The angels understand the mystery of Alahim through the work of Alahim in the church in revealing who Messiah is 1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. Yahusha in being externalized from Alahim (came out from Alahim John 16:27, John 17:8) became like his brethren in every way because it pleased him to be like his brethren in every aspect. In this lowly form (made little lower than the angels as Psalms 8 teaches) for the first time the angels would see their creator and hence the declaration Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of Alahim worship him. If the angels already knew who their Alahim was then this declaration would not make any sense as they would have seen Messiah creating them as Eternal Son as Trinity doctrine teaches and all these scriptures would mean nothing. The Mystery was unfolded through the revelation of who Messiah is. He is Alahim in immanence, both of angels and mankind and beasts etc. All things were made through him and for him: Both in heaven and on earth which makes him firstborn over all creation that he may be pre-eminent. Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible Alahim, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him Creation is attributed to him in transcendence when Alahim within himself that he would manifest to his creation in being face to face with his creation. The Light of the knowledge of the glory of Alahim through the face of Messiah. 2Co 4:6 For Alahim, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of Alahim in the face of Yahusha Messiah. Moreover Paul speaks about this mystery of Alahim. He says that the mystery of godliness is great 1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: Alahim was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. Notice the words 'seen of angels'. Prior to this angels did not see their Creator as Alahim in transcendence dwells in an unapproachable light 1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which nothing (oudeis) can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. We also see Paul speaking of the mystery of Alahim's will which he purposed in himself that in the fulness of time he might gather together in one all things in Messiah both in heaven (angels) and all things on earth (man, beast, kingdoms etc) Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Messiah, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: The whole family in heaven and earth is named/related to Alahim the Father through Messiah who sits as the visible image of the invisible Alahim on Alahim's throne forever and ever. Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of Alahim; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. The angels are made subordinate/subject to Messiah when their understanding is opened to see Messiah as their Alahim in immanence Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of Alahim, and of the Father, and of Messiah; Finally coming back to 1 Tim 3:16 Alahim was manifest in the flesh (Word was made flesh), justified in the Spirit: The Word justified is not in the literal sense of he being made righteous as we are but being rendered in the Spirit ( as the Quickening Spirit 1 Corin 15:45, 2 Corin 3:17) and seen(signifies an earnest but more continued inspection) of angels which ties up with the verse where Peter speaks of angels desiring to look into the revelation of who Alahim is through the work of Alahim through his church. 1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: Alahim was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. Shodan