James quote: That's right messenger, I am talking about the "Love of Alahim." And I'm
reminded of what C.S.Lewis stated: "If Alahim was a single Person, then
before the world was made, He was not love." Do you really think that
statement means what your advocating that the Trinity has to be false?
In spite of the fact that John 1:1 clearly states, "The Word/Logos was
"WITH" Alahim, and the Word/Logos "WAS" Alahim. And your telling me I don't
understand the Deity of Messiah because according to you I'm assuming Him
to be the "ETERNAL SON?" End quote
My response: Alahim is not a PERSON. In transcendence he is unknowable and unapproachable and he is not Trinity of persons. C.S LEWIS quotes are not Alahim’s WORD so stick to Alahim’s word not quotes from men. The LOGOS/WORD is not the ETERNAL SON and that’s how you interpret it and yes you do not understand the DEITY since your adding to Alahim’s WORD as ‘ETERNAL SON’
James quote: I'm not "assuming" anything but rather proving the Son "IS" eternal and was always eternal "WITH" Alahim because He "IS" Alahim according to John 1:1. Moreover, we as human beings were created in Alahim's image which means we possess certain characteristics of Alahims character. In fact, the Bible is clear that Alahim exists in relationship with His Son and with the Holy Spirit. The Bible terms it the "Alahimhead" and we term it the Trinity. How many times have you heard someone say, "Alahim wants to have a realtionship with you?" Or the question, "Do you have a personal relationship with Yahusha Messiah?"End quote
My response: There you go, you are reading John 1:1 as Joh 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Eternal Son, and the Eternal Son was with Alahim, and the Eternal Son was Alahim.
That’s adding to Alahim’s Word. John uses the word Logos not Eternal Son because Logos was both transcendent as well as immanent-both internal as well as external to Alahim. Logos is Alahim’s soul essence, his thoughts, his expression, his wisdom, his intellect. One cannot know Alahim’s thoughts unless he expresses his thoughts to us and that’s exactly what Alahim did. He pierced his creation to reveal his thoughts when he said “Let there be light…” Gen 1:3. Paul tells us what Alahim meant by when he said “ Let there be light”
2Co 4:6 For Alahim, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of Alahim in the face of Yahusha Messiah.
He planned his Divinity be manifested in an IMAGE and that’s why the LOGOS was made flesh so that creation could be face to face with the invisible Alahim through his image.
Col 1:15 Who (Yahushah) is the image of the invisible Alahim, the firstborn of every creature:
The LOGOS was made flesh. The SON was not made flesh.
Joh 1:14 And the Word (LOGOS not SON) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
When the LOGOS was made flesh he was called the SON not before that and that’s why I said you have the cart before the horse. The creation is attributed to the Son because the SON is Alahim’s own LOGOS made flesh. Externalized for our sakes.
Ps 33:6 By the word of the YAHUAH were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath (spirit) of his mouth.
That’s why John ties up the SON to the LOGOS and show that they are coterminous.
Col 2:9 For in him (Yahusha) dwelleth all the fulness of the Divinity bodily. –It doesn’t mean that 3 persons are dwelling in Yahusha but the fullness of Alahim dwelling in his image. That’s why Yahusha told Philip that if he had seen him he has seen the Father.
James quote: We are social and realtionship beings messenger and so is Alahim. Why else does Yahusha give a wonderful discourse of this relationship within the Alahimhead at John 17, and why Yahusha wants us to be one in unity just like He and His Father are one in unity. John 17:20,21, "I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; vs21, that they may be one; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in US; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me." And like the layman stated on the oneness board, "If you are in a relationship with the Father/Son/Holy Spirit, then you must be in a relationship wth them all; for there is only one Alahim. If you deny one, you deny all."End Quote
My response: Alahim calls us to be rooted and grounded in Messiah not in Trinity of persons. If you are in Messiah you are in Alahim and Alahim is in you. There is no other way beyond Messiah. You cannot call on the Holy Spirit to be saved or call out on the Father to be saved. You have to call on the name of Yahushah to be saved because if you have him you have all of GOD. That’s the truth.
Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Messiah Yahusha the Yahuah, so walk ye in him:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him (Yahusha), which is the head of all principality and power:
Ac 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Ac 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
James quote: Now, getting back to topic of this thread, the angel of the Yahuah you told me, "The appearance in the OT as ANGEL OF THE YAHUAH was based on the futuristic rold of the MEDIATOR." I had ask you where you came up with this idea because again, you are contradicting yourself. You said: "yes Alahim is invisible but being invisible he can still appear in a FORM because there is no limit to his POWER. Hebrews writer says that Alahim in divers manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophets and one such manner was ANGEL OF THE YAHUAH.
Since Alahim/Yahusha Messiah Himself stated that Alahim His Father is invisible on more than one occasion you can't just make up an excuse that "well he can still appear in a FORM because there is no limit to his POWER." Really! At Genesis 16:7 the angel of the Yahuah appeared to Hagar and promised her that "I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they shall be too many to count." (Genesis 16:10). The next chapter starting at Genesis 1:1-2, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Yahuah appeared t Abram and said to him, "I am Alahim Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless. vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly."
First of all how is this a "futuristic role of the MEDIATOR" who is promising Hagar that he will multiply her descendants? How can you call this "mediating?" Secondly, who is the being that appeared to Abram and promised to multiply Abram's descendants?End quote
My response: The Logos was transcendent as well as immanent. There is no limit to Alahim’s power. He can appear in any form and that’s exactly what he did. I was telling Molly on this thread the same.
Here it is again:
Nu 12:5 And the YAHUAH came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.
6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the YAHUAH will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the YAHUAH shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
The Word 'SIMILTUDE' is 08544. hnwmt t@muwnah, tem-oo-naw'
Search for 08544 in KJV
or tmunah {tem-oo-naw'}; from 4327; something portioned (i.e. fashioned) out, as a shape, i.e. (indefinitely) phantom, or (specifically) embodiment, or (figuratively) manifestation (of favor):--image, likeness, similitude.
Which means LIKENESS
Da 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of Alahim
This was not the ETERNAL SON but 'A FORM OF GOD IN HIS LIKENESS' and these appearances was based on the futuristic role of the MEDIATOR not the MEDIATOR HIMSELF. MOSES stood as a mediator for the people between Alahim and Israel and Messiah is compared to MOSES.
Heb 3:2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
3 For this man (Yahusha) was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
2 Mediators are being compared to each other. The ANGEL OF THE YAHUAH was not the Eternal Son but Alahim speaking to man through a form/likeness in divers manners sometimes like a man wrestling with Jacob, sometimes through flame of fire in a bush, sometimes as Angel of the Yahuah, sometimes as pillar of fire etc.
If you look up the symbolisms in the way Alahim manifested to the prophets you can look up in NT the same symbolisms are used for Messiah.
Example: He appeared to Moses in a flame of fire.
Ac 7:30 ¶ And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Yahuah in a flame of fire in a bush.
Re 2:18 ¶ And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of Alahim, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
Pillar of fire and pillar of cloud:
Ex 13:21 And the YAHUAH went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:
1Co 10:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Messiah.
These appearances were based on the futuristic role of the Son through whom Alahim would be realized and understood which you see as ETERNAL SON OF GOD which is wrong.
Speaking about Hagar. Ishmael was Abraham’s son. Alahim had promised Abraham that his seed would be like the stars of heaven (which represent children of promise) and sand on the sea shore (which represent children of flesh). With this context now read these verses.
Ga 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Hope you see the reason why Abraham’s seed Ishmael was preserved because there has to be a measuring line which differentiates between the children of flesh and children by promise? and the cross of Yahushah is the measuring line.
More elaboration to my response: Galatians 3:19-20 KJV
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. [20] Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but Alahim is one.
The mediator is not of one but Alahim is one : The law served 2 purposes
1) school master to lead sinner to Messiah.
Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Messiah, that we might be justified by faith.
2) judgement to those who didn't see a need for a Savior
Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
The mediator mediates mercy to sinners who see the need for the Mediator to save them and mediates the wrath of Alahim to those who don't see the need for the Mediator. That's why it says Mediator is not of one but Alahim is One through whom both mercy flows to sinners in need of the Savior/Mediator Messiah and wrath to those who don't see the need for him.
The Mediator is the measuring line who executes mercy or wrath of Alahim. 2 covenants Hagar in bondage with her children and Jerusalem from above with her children. Both seed of Abraham and the mediator Messiah executes mercy to those born from above and wrath to children of flesh. All this is mentioned in book of Galatians where theme is law vs grace. Outcome of those under the law and those under grace and Messiah mediates both.
My response: Alahim is not a PERSON. In transcendence he is unknowable and unapproachable and he is not Trinity of persons. C.S LEWIS quotes are not Alahim’s WORD so stick to Alahim’s word not quotes from men. The LOGOS/WORD is not the ETERNAL SON and that’s how you interpret it and yes you do not understand the DEITY since your adding to Alahim’s WORD as ‘ETERNAL SON’
James quote: I'm not "assuming" anything but rather proving the Son "IS" eternal and was always eternal "WITH" Alahim because He "IS" Alahim according to John 1:1. Moreover, we as human beings were created in Alahim's image which means we possess certain characteristics of Alahims character. In fact, the Bible is clear that Alahim exists in relationship with His Son and with the Holy Spirit. The Bible terms it the "Alahimhead" and we term it the Trinity. How many times have you heard someone say, "Alahim wants to have a realtionship with you?" Or the question, "Do you have a personal relationship with Yahusha Messiah?"End quote
My response: There you go, you are reading John 1:1 as Joh 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Eternal Son, and the Eternal Son was with Alahim, and the Eternal Son was Alahim.
That’s adding to Alahim’s Word. John uses the word Logos not Eternal Son because Logos was both transcendent as well as immanent-both internal as well as external to Alahim. Logos is Alahim’s soul essence, his thoughts, his expression, his wisdom, his intellect. One cannot know Alahim’s thoughts unless he expresses his thoughts to us and that’s exactly what Alahim did. He pierced his creation to reveal his thoughts when he said “Let there be light…” Gen 1:3. Paul tells us what Alahim meant by when he said “ Let there be light”
2Co 4:6 For Alahim, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of Alahim in the face of Yahusha Messiah.
He planned his Divinity be manifested in an IMAGE and that’s why the LOGOS was made flesh so that creation could be face to face with the invisible Alahim through his image.
Col 1:15 Who (Yahushah) is the image of the invisible Alahim, the firstborn of every creature:
The LOGOS was made flesh. The SON was not made flesh.
Joh 1:14 And the Word (LOGOS not SON) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
When the LOGOS was made flesh he was called the SON not before that and that’s why I said you have the cart before the horse. The creation is attributed to the Son because the SON is Alahim’s own LOGOS made flesh. Externalized for our sakes.
Ps 33:6 By the word of the YAHUAH were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath (spirit) of his mouth.
That’s why John ties up the SON to the LOGOS and show that they are coterminous.
Col 2:9 For in him (Yahusha) dwelleth all the fulness of the Divinity bodily. –It doesn’t mean that 3 persons are dwelling in Yahusha but the fullness of Alahim dwelling in his image. That’s why Yahusha told Philip that if he had seen him he has seen the Father.
James quote: We are social and realtionship beings messenger and so is Alahim. Why else does Yahusha give a wonderful discourse of this relationship within the Alahimhead at John 17, and why Yahusha wants us to be one in unity just like He and His Father are one in unity. John 17:20,21, "I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; vs21, that they may be one; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in US; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me." And like the layman stated on the oneness board, "If you are in a relationship with the Father/Son/Holy Spirit, then you must be in a relationship wth them all; for there is only one Alahim. If you deny one, you deny all."End Quote
My response: Alahim calls us to be rooted and grounded in Messiah not in Trinity of persons. If you are in Messiah you are in Alahim and Alahim is in you. There is no other way beyond Messiah. You cannot call on the Holy Spirit to be saved or call out on the Father to be saved. You have to call on the name of Yahushah to be saved because if you have him you have all of GOD. That’s the truth.
Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Messiah Yahusha the Yahuah, so walk ye in him:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him (Yahusha), which is the head of all principality and power:
Ac 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Ac 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
James quote: Now, getting back to topic of this thread, the angel of the Yahuah you told me, "The appearance in the OT as ANGEL OF THE YAHUAH was based on the futuristic rold of the MEDIATOR." I had ask you where you came up with this idea because again, you are contradicting yourself. You said: "yes Alahim is invisible but being invisible he can still appear in a FORM because there is no limit to his POWER. Hebrews writer says that Alahim in divers manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophets and one such manner was ANGEL OF THE YAHUAH.
Since Alahim/Yahusha Messiah Himself stated that Alahim His Father is invisible on more than one occasion you can't just make up an excuse that "well he can still appear in a FORM because there is no limit to his POWER." Really! At Genesis 16:7 the angel of the Yahuah appeared to Hagar and promised her that "I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they shall be too many to count." (Genesis 16:10). The next chapter starting at Genesis 1:1-2, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Yahuah appeared t Abram and said to him, "I am Alahim Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless. vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly."
First of all how is this a "futuristic role of the MEDIATOR" who is promising Hagar that he will multiply her descendants? How can you call this "mediating?" Secondly, who is the being that appeared to Abram and promised to multiply Abram's descendants?End quote
My response: The Logos was transcendent as well as immanent. There is no limit to Alahim’s power. He can appear in any form and that’s exactly what he did. I was telling Molly on this thread the same.
Here it is again:
Nu 12:5 And the YAHUAH came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.
6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the YAHUAH will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the YAHUAH shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
The Word 'SIMILTUDE' is 08544. hnwmt t@muwnah, tem-oo-naw'
Search for 08544 in KJV
or tmunah {tem-oo-naw'}; from 4327; something portioned (i.e. fashioned) out, as a shape, i.e. (indefinitely) phantom, or (specifically) embodiment, or (figuratively) manifestation (of favor):--image, likeness, similitude.
Which means LIKENESS
Da 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of Alahim
This was not the ETERNAL SON but 'A FORM OF GOD IN HIS LIKENESS' and these appearances was based on the futuristic role of the MEDIATOR not the MEDIATOR HIMSELF. MOSES stood as a mediator for the people between Alahim and Israel and Messiah is compared to MOSES.
Heb 3:2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
3 For this man (Yahusha) was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
2 Mediators are being compared to each other. The ANGEL OF THE YAHUAH was not the Eternal Son but Alahim speaking to man through a form/likeness in divers manners sometimes like a man wrestling with Jacob, sometimes through flame of fire in a bush, sometimes as Angel of the Yahuah, sometimes as pillar of fire etc.
If you look up the symbolisms in the way Alahim manifested to the prophets you can look up in NT the same symbolisms are used for Messiah.
Example: He appeared to Moses in a flame of fire.
Ac 7:30 ¶ And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Yahuah in a flame of fire in a bush.
Re 2:18 ¶ And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of Alahim, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
Pillar of fire and pillar of cloud:
Ex 13:21 And the YAHUAH went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:
1Co 10:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Messiah.
These appearances were based on the futuristic role of the Son through whom Alahim would be realized and understood which you see as ETERNAL SON OF GOD which is wrong.
Speaking about Hagar. Ishmael was Abraham’s son. Alahim had promised Abraham that his seed would be like the stars of heaven (which represent children of promise) and sand on the sea shore (which represent children of flesh). With this context now read these verses.
Ga 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Hope you see the reason why Abraham’s seed Ishmael was preserved because there has to be a measuring line which differentiates between the children of flesh and children by promise? and the cross of Yahushah is the measuring line.
More elaboration to my response: Galatians 3:19-20 KJV
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. [20] Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but Alahim is one.
The mediator is not of one but Alahim is one : The law served 2 purposes
1) school master to lead sinner to Messiah.
Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Messiah, that we might be justified by faith.
2) judgement to those who didn't see a need for a Savior
Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
The mediator mediates mercy to sinners who see the need for the Mediator to save them and mediates the wrath of Alahim to those who don't see the need for the Mediator. That's why it says Mediator is not of one but Alahim is One through whom both mercy flows to sinners in need of the Savior/Mediator Messiah and wrath to those who don't see the need for him.
The Mediator is the measuring line who executes mercy or wrath of Alahim. 2 covenants Hagar in bondage with her children and Jerusalem from above with her children. Both seed of Abraham and the mediator Messiah executes mercy to those born from above and wrath to children of flesh. All this is mentioned in book of Galatians where theme is law vs grace. Outcome of those under the law and those under grace and Messiah mediates both.
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